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Comment by beardedman | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand the unnecessary tone John Gruber uses in this article.

> Fuck this “sir” shit. We don’t have titles in the United States.

The US isn't the only country on the map (surprisingly enough, I know). And who cares if Jony Ive is starting his own thing? Why would that be "pure spin"?

Apple is not in its renaissance days anymore - whilst Jony Ive might have been critical back then - Apple is just not the same company anymore. There are a lot more people responsible for the "magic" these days (which is a good thing).

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He's not saying that Jony Ive starting his own thing is pure spin. He's saying that Jony continuing to be substantially involved in Apple design is pure spin.

And regarding addressing people as 'Sir so and so'. As an American, it's always really jarring when I come across this in print. America has a lot of problems, but one of the most hopelessly idealistic things we ever did was opt to forego a formal aristocracy. But anyway, I think Gruber perhaps didn't realize that the reason the Financial Times was using Ives' title is that they're an English publication.

All I ever see is people in US TV saying “sir” and “ma’am”, is this inaccurate? I’m from the UK and similarly don’t believe in titles and I have never used or heard these words used in my life

People will say to you "sir/ma'am" in a customer/representative situations, e.g. retail salespeople will call you sir, and so will often clerks in government offices. Outside of these, not really.

Sir and ma’am are simply polite ways to address any man/woman. It isn’t a formal title and you address anyone you like using those words when you want to be respectful.

We add those terms to the end of a phrase in lieu of a person’s name. As in, “How may I help you, sir?”. But the usage referenced in the article was putting the word before the person’s name to indicate that they’ve been titled by the British government (or the crown, perhaps?). As in, “Sir Jony Ive has announced that he will be leaving Apple.”

Very different things.

Well he is British, so it's reasonable to respect his title, no? Just as I might respect an American general or president's title, or a vicar's reverend even though I am an atheist. All replace a simple Mr or Ms just like Dr does. Not that I'm likely to meet many generals or presidents... :)

Exactly, people are making something out of nothing.

UK TV and movies use "sir" and "ma'am" (or "marm") pretty frequently.

In the U.S., they're not so commonly used outside of very formal service situations (e.g., military, customer service). Friends don't call each other "sir" or "ma'am", except perhaps as a joke.

>Friends don't call each other "sir" or "ma'am",

They don't do this in the UK either.

The Apple press release also styled his name Sir Jony Ive. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/06/jony-ive-to-form-inde...

I would go one step further and say that aristocracy is fundamentally un-American.

It's not really aristocracy, it's essentially the equivalent of the Medal of Freedom, for Jony Ive it's a civilian honour; David Beckham isn't an aristocrat either.

A fair point. It’s not a hereditary title, so it’s not the same thing. And yes, the U.S. gives out medals as well, but we don’t call the recipients knights or give them special appellations.

Lots of people get special appellations in the US. E.g. professors, doctors, priests, reverends.

I usually wouldn't comment on this, but I can't look past that "un-American". You guys _do_ realize there is, and through the entire history of the USA has been, a fully-fledged industrial aristocracy in place? Just because you don't call them "Sir" but landlord, investor or entrepreneur doesn't change a single thing. Just look at the history of rich ranch owners... Humans are the same, everywhere.

>You guys _do_ realize there is, and through the entire history of the USA has been, a fully-fledged industrial aristocracy in place?

How is that consistent with the fact that the five largest US corporations by market cap (Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, Alphabet and Facebook) have not been passed on to offspring and were not started by descendents of the industrial elite of the country?

I agree that social mobility is lacking by in many ways, but the result is clearly not a fully-fledged industrial aristocracy.

Ive is a KBE, which is not an aristocratic title like "lord" or "baron" or "duke". The full title is Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire. It makes him a member of the Order of the British Empire, a chivalric order for civilians and military who are rewarded for their contributions to society. It's just a honorific; it doesn't come with land or castles or any governing power.

Well, then, Apple should immediately amend their press release to let us know that Jony Ive, Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, is resigning from the company.

Gruber is 100% right in this case. Fuck that nonsense.

Yeah that bugged me too. We still call the Queen "Queen" even when she's in the US. We don't assign titles of nobility, but we certainly respect them.

“Queen” is a title, like “president” or even “janitor.”

“Sir” is an honorific. Like “his holiness” or “your honor” or “her majesty.”

We use titles all the time in the US but rarely use honorifics (with a few exceptions).

Doctors and reverends are called with honorifics all the time.

In the Deep South, it's not that unusual to say Mr./Ms. (First name) as a show of respect.

When I worked at Aflac, the sole remaining (living) founder, Paul Amos, was routinely internally referred to as Mr. Paul.

I don’t think Americans unanimously respect titles of nobility, and I think Gruber’s point is that he personally doesn’t respect them and wishes Apple didn’t respect them either.

Whether this is a consistent point of his, whether Gruber has always referred to the Queen as Elizabeth Windsor, I don’t know. But I wouldn’t conflate convenience with respect. “The Queen” is a very easy name to remember and use informally without necessarily supporting monarchy. Like, I wouldn’t call Captain Blackbeard “Captain Blackbeard” out of respect for piracy.

This is Gruber’s typical and entertaining tone. Daring Fireball has always been as much entertainment as Apple punditry.

Take it too seriously at your own risk, sir.

It was entertainment back in the anthropomorphic Brushed Metal days. Gruber hasn’t been funny for a while.

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