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Comment by thaumasiotes | Hacker News Reader

> And then there are straight up dodges like using Arabic numbers for everything in Japan because they have multiple counting systems. Apples and humans use different words when counting.

In Chinese, the Arabic numerals wouldn't get you out of this, as they replace the number, but not the measure word:

3 apples -- 三个苹果 -- 3个苹果

3 people [needing to sit in a restaurant, or being honored, or what have you] -- 三位 -- 3位.

3 cats -- 三只猫 -- 3只猫.

Will an Arabic number replace both the number and the measure word in written Japanese? What's being dodged?

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It occurs to me that I should probably note that the nouns in those examples are 苹果 (apple), 人 (person), and 猫 (cat); they appear (or don't) along with the measure words they require[1] when being enumerated, 个, 位, and 只. The measure words are not part of the noun and don't occur in other contexts, e.g. 我 [I] 喜欢 [like] 吃 [to eat] 苹果 [apples].

[1] The ordinary measure word for 人 is 个, the same as for apples. 位 is more formal.

Japanese doesn't just have different measure words, but also different number words depending on the thing being counted. That said, the difference can be hidden in writing, so unless you need text-to-speech it is not much of a problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_numerals

Is this the phenomenon you're referring to?

> In modern Japanese, cardinal numbers are given the on readings except 4 and 7, which are called yon and nana respectively. Alternate readings are used in month names, day-of-month names, and fixed phrases. For instance, the decimal fraction 4.79 is always read yon-ten nana kyū, though April, July, and September are called shi-gatsu (4th month), shichi-gatsu (7th month), and ku-gatsu (9th month) respectively. The on readings are also used when shouting out headcounts (e.g. ichi-ni-san-shi).

For names and fixed phrases, there's at least an argument that e.g. "shi" is just a part of the word historically descending from a then-current word for 4, as opposed to the word for 4 being different when it identifies April. (That argument definitely won't apply to headcounts, though.)

The decimal example made me curious whether decimal numbers like 4.79 might ever be written out in kanji rather than Arabic numerals. Decimals are enough of a recent foreign import that I might expect them not to have a native, character-based representation.

No, I believe the GP is referring to the fact that in japanese when you ask for 'four beers' the word for 'four' is different than when you ask for 'four chairs.'

I don't fully understand it, but that is what a native speaker told me.

English has some of these words too -- they're specific kinds of counters.

Paper is counted in "sheets" or "reams," for example. "I want a sheet of paper" is distinct from "I want a paper" -- outside of the context of a newspaper, the latter would be considered grammatically incorrect.

It's just that in Japanese, these are more or less standardized based on the kind of thing you're counting, so 個 for small, discrete objects, 匹 for small animals, 本 for long, thin things, 冊 for bound sheaves of paper, etc.

So as an example, an English interface could say something like "4 umbrellas", and the Japanese version could get away with something like "4 傘 [kasa, meaning 'umbrella']" if it's a list, but if it's in prose, you definitely need to be able to say "傘4本 [lit. umbrella 4-count-of-long-thin-object]" or something similar depending on the context.

Mmm... I don’t think that it’s the same concept as the sheet of paper. Ippai and hitotsu contain the number, in English you don’t say I want isheet or tsheet of paper to indicate that you want one or two sheets of paper and ipbeer or nibeer to ask for one or two beers.

Upthread, the topic is set by yorwba's comment:

>>> Japanese doesn't just have different measure words, but also different number words depending on the thing being counted.

You're talking about the measure words, not the number words.

I understand that; I mistakenly thought mrunkei was unclear about measure words.

Kirin biru ippai, tonkatsu ramen hitotsu to ask for a beer or for a ramen for the little that I remember... Definitely there is nothing similar in English.

Thus illustrating the difference between de facto expert an actual expert. And that you often get what you pay for.

For every four things I can catch that other people wouldn’t, There’s at least one thing I haven’t even heard of. Though in this case as long as the noun isn’t being interpolated I think there’s a simple in a fix for it.

You are much better off hiring someone with experience, and if you can afford it, a proper specialist.

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