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Comment by Lendal | Hacker News Reader

And yet they won't invest a dime in charging infrastructure as Tesla has done. Which means the only electric car you'll be able to drive between cities remains Tesla. Until that changes Tesla will continue to sell 10x more electric cars than all other carmakers combined.

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> And yet they won't invest a dime in charging infrastructure

BMW has a stake in the Ionity charging network, a joint venture of a few companies: https://ionity.eu/en/about.html

BMW also sells home charging units: https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/360electric-international/...

Your claim is wrong.

The claim is dead-right.

I own a Tesla Model 3, my wife drives a BMW i3, my daughter has a leaf.

The ONLY car we can effectively travel outside of the greater Tampa area without major headache is the Tesla.

The ONLY car that I would try to drive to New York from Florida in is the Tesla. (Yes, we've done it.. but would only try it in the Tesla)

I have wanted to get into an EV and it is the long distance travel issue (for that 1% of the time) that has been keeping me (and I imagine a lot of people) from making the switch. Tesla is the only model to have come close to solving that issue.

One thing I have been waiting to see is a push to have gas stations adopt EV charging on a large scale. Gas stations, particularly ones along interstate routes, often double as rest stops and usually have large parking areas with small marts, and a couple of fast food options. If companies partnered with a major gas pump operator like chevron, shell or mobile to offer even a small number of charging stations with each gas station (even just 2 to 4 at each site in the 50-100kw range.. though the wiring would most likely need to be upgraded to support this) things would shift rapidly I think. I know charge times remain an issue, but if you are taking a rest stop anyway.. the 30-40 minutes of charge is not as big of an issue.

A government subsidy could also be introduced to help offset some of the cost of upgrading these gas stations. An increased tax on Gasoline could go towards paying for such a subsidy. Also I think we need to take another look at nuclear power to help charge those EVs, but that is another conversation.

> If companies partnered with a major gas pump operator like chevron, shell or mobile

They're doing that in Europe:

https://electrek.co/2017/09/27/shell-new-electric-car-chargi...

Walmart and Target in the US are partnering with charging networks to put fast chargers in their parking lots:

https://electrek.co/2018/04/18/vw-electrify-america-walmart-...

https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/target-tesla-chargepoint-elec...

Actually if you download the PlugShare app it has all kinds of charging stations, not just the Tesla Superchargers and I was honestly shocked at the number of chargers there are around the US, they are literally everywhere now. Many of the non-Tesla charging places only charge $1-$2/hour, so while it might take you longer your electric road trip is going to be a lot cheaper. I think you could easily do long distance trips in most electric cars in the US now with a little planning. Walgreens for example has level 2 J-1772 chargers at over 400 locations in the US, which are almost as fast as most Tesla superchargers:

https://www.walgreens.com/topic/sr/sr_electric_vehicle_charg...

Teslas come with a J-1772 adapter so you can charge them there as well. Many hotels, airports, malls and parking garages have chargers now as well. I really think we are at a tipping point, one of the annoying things now is when you get to a charger it's busy. Some of the busiest Tesla superchargers you have to wait 15-20 minutes sometimes for a spot to open up.

There is a big difference between Level 2 charging and the Tesla Superchargers. Level 2 J1772 charging tops out under 20 kW, but most cars can only handle 7kW. Most of the current DC fast charging points (ChargePoint etc) are 50 kW. Faster ones are coming, but most of the current cars (Bolt, Leaf, i3, Kia) can only accept less than 100 kW. Tesla Superchargers are currently 145 kW, but new installations are 250 kW.

Electrify America and EVgo are installing 350 kW chargers:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/electrify-america-350-kw-...

https://insideevs.com/news/341596/evgo-launches-350-kw-ultra...

And in Europe Fastned and Ionity are also installing 350 kW chargers:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ionity-launches-first-350...

https://fastned.nl/en/blog/post/fastned-opens-its-first-350k...

That almost seems like the exception that proves the rule. For Ionity, they have what looks to be a few dozen chargers installed in Europe, a few dozen more under construction, but nothing in the Americas, China, or elsewhere.

The home charging units are nice, but not, I think, what people usually mean when they are discussing charging infrastructure. What people typically mean in that context is "chargers I can use when I am traveling." In that context, GPs "they won't invest a dime" statement is understandable in its sentiment, even if not entirely true. Auto manufacturers do not seem to be taking charging infrastructure needs seriously. Although it is good that this seems to be changing, it's not happening quickly enough.

If anything, the lack of progress on this front is further evidence that the traditional auto companies do not take EVs seriously, and have no intentions of doing so.

Europe is different, certainly in the UK. The charging network is being built and you can go cross country with an electric car.

From what I understand from watching the Fully Charged Show there is plenty of charging infrastructure being put in place in mainland Europe. However, we are more like two or three plugs at a motorway service station (with one broken) fifty miles away rather than every lamp post having a plug on it.

Really it is the electricity companies rather than the auto manufacturers who are taking that part up, much like how BMW et al. don't own petrol filling stations they don't own the charging infrastructure.

2-3 plugs is bad. Between potential breakage and use by other cars, I wouldn’t rely on any location with less than 4, and even that would make me uncomfortable. You really need at least 6, and 8+ is best.

The lamp posts are going to be good. You just call your electricity supplier and they put them in on your street - if you live in Hounslow. This is the no-nonsense solution for cities where people don't have off street parking and garages.

That’s excellent for routine use but doesn’t help much for long trips.

They are great in a few select places where they use actual lamp posts. But in a lot of the UK they are rolling out chargers like this that block the pavement to people doing using ACTUAL green transport (walking): https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/may/04/charged-compl...

That's an overstatement, there will be non Tesla EVs with over 200 miles range and there are other charging companies. To say you cant drive between cities in a non Tesla EV is just false. Furthermore your 10X is way off, Tesla sells the most but historically Leaf and various plug ins put up comparable numbers in the 0.5 to 1X volume range compared to S and X. Model 3 is biggest volume EV of course, but only in the past 12-18 months or so.

So, let's get informed people. EVs matter for climate change but blatant disinformation gets us nowhere.

any luxury brand maker should be ashamed to have any EV in that space that gets less three hundred miles on the EPA system. The i3 gets a pass because it was introduced at a time when its initial range was average for most EVs.

today, mid to slightly lower than mid two hundred mile range EVs are where consumer priced EVs will reign. Everything else needs to exist beyond that to show value and seriousness because those range numbers still require fair to nice weather to achieve. In some countries there could be a good market for the one hundred mile club but that would take some seriously aggressive pricing to convince people

Plus "electrified" does not imply full EV. that is the cop out for PHEV. Worse their new Mini E is again a disappointment in range and cost. Considering where it landed it makes me wonder what BMW will need to charge for range competitive with a Tesla 3 LR. Audi and Jaguar did the EV movement no favors with their lack luster attempts

Go ahead and find the EVs that aren't Tesla that beat the 2012 Model S's 265 miles of range and are on the market right now. They don't exist.

The 2020 Porsche Taycan (300 miles), 2020 Mercedes EQC (293 miles), 2019 Audi E-Tron (204 miles), 2019 VW e-Golf (125 miles), 2019 BMW i3 (126 miles) still don't beat my 2018 Model 3 LR AWD (325 miles). On the most recent TSLA Investor's call, Musk said that Tesla isn't far from 400 mile batteries. Additionally, they just bought Maxwell Technologies known for their work on ultracapacitors to improve lithium ion battery efficiency. More electric vehicles also forces more policy makers to think seriously about EV charging infrastructure and helps sway public opinion. More EVs on the road is a net win for Tesla.

> And yet they won't invest a dime in charging infrastructure as Tesla has done.

They're part of IONITY (along with VW, Daimler, and Ford).

In the US, Ionity has what, about 100 stations currently out of approximately 500 planned stations?

There are 668 Tesla superchargers currently open in the US alone and 20 were opened this month alone per: https://supercharge.info/changes

> In the US, Ionity has what, about 100 stations

Ionity doesn't have any in the US. They're a European network. You're probably thinking of Electrify America:

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/

Electrify America is also partnering with ChargePoint to effectively unify their networks, the advantage being you can use one account across both networks:

https://media.electrifyamerica.com/en-us/releases/64

And don't forget that if you have a CCS car you can also charge it on any other CCS charging network, such as EVgo.

Tesla has CCS adapters though, so more EVs are still good for Tesla as well.

Is this map [1] up-to-date? It shows some 150kW+ chargers in both Europe and North America, but I expected a lot more (given your claim).

It's probably also relevant that the usual mains sockets in a European house can provide around 3kW, around double the US. Installing a new circuit (with thicker wiring) increases that to around 7kW at a fairly low expense. That makes it much easier to charge at home (spend €150 to have the extra circuit installed), or when visiting a house/office (use the nearest normal socket).

[1] https://map.openchargemap.io/#/search

I'm talking about real-world. If you actually go to the places on the map, half the time the place doesn't exist, or can't find it, or it's closed. That can't happen when you're down to your last 10 miles of battery range. Tesla's network is dependable and real, and there is accountability when something goes wrong. You know who to blame and who to call. If you're in a Jaguar I-pace or Audi E-tron, you're depending on third-party. There is no accountability. It doesn't give you a warm fuzzy feeling that you're not gonna be stranded in the middle of nowhere with your very expensive doorstop.

I'm sorry this is making me sound like a Tesla fan but I'm really not. It's just the current state of the world. Tesla showed these carmakers the way to go, and instead they decided to go the wrong way and put the burden on us the consumers. That stinks in my opinion and I'm just mad about it.

The Electrify America network looks very similar to the Tesla one. Let's see how well it works after they spend the $2B they got from the Volkswagen settlement.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/05/inside-electrify-americ...

It may look similar at a glance, but they're quite a ways behind in practice.

Tesla has over 1500 charger stations (and 13,000 stalls) in north america right now, Electrify america is planning 500 stations (2,000 stalls) by the end of 2019.

If you take a look at tesla's map they not only have significantly more coverage, but they have a lot more density around cities where from what I can see EA has just a couple stations. Not to mention that EA seems to only have a few stalls at each location, compared to 6+ in most places for the tesla superchargers that i've personally seen.

I'm all for more chargers, and I'm excited that EA is happening, but Tesla is pretty much unparalleled right now when it comes to charging infrastructure, by quite a large margin.

https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

End of 2019 is only phase 2 of 4, and significantly less than half of the money spent.

> Electrify america is planning 500 stations (2,000 stalls) by the end of 2019

And roaming agreements with other networks, such as ChargePoint:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/06/11/electrify-america-charg...

That's actually pretty awesome, but the ChargePoint chargers are only "Level 2". They're great for charging where you've stopped for a few hours or more, but it would be a nightmare to try and do any kind of road trip with them at any time except overnight.

Tesla has what they call "Destination chargers" which are a similar speed/level, and I don't know of any counts of them off the top of my head, but they probably outnumber the Superchargers by 3-to-1 (as a complete guess based on how many show up around me on the map).

If we're comparing DC fast charging to DC fast charging, neither of those really count, and if you're on a road trip, neither Destination chargers nor chargepoint chargers are a realistic option unless you are stopping for several hours.

> the ChargePoint chargers are only "Level 2"

No, they do fast chargers as well:

https://www.chargepoint.com/products/dc-fast/

https://www.chargepoint.com/products/network/

Well shit! That's my bad I never saw any near me and assumed they didn't really offer them.

They've got quite a few! Thanks!

I'm not personally familiar with that one, but as an owner this is the ultimate source of authority for me when planning trips. Hopefully more illustrative: https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

How many gas station does BMW own? I don't think they need to invest in charging infrastructure as long as there is one. If there is a need and money involved there will be a lot down the road.

Just like other ecosystems with lock-in, it's great if you are a fan, sucks if you are not.

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