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Comment by needle0 | Hacker News Reader

I've used JapanTaxi (mentioned in the article) a fair number of times, and while there's nothing wrong with the experience of the app, oftentimes the biggest competitor to these ride-hailing apps is the fact that Tokyo's roads are so densely populated with taxis cruising everywhere that it's often faster to just hail one passing by than to open an app on your phone.

I feel the Uber service itself has a sort of a 'premium' feeling around it in Japan, with the cars/staff/pricing being higher-class than the run-of-the-mill taxis you can hail. As such they don't seem to be used too often. I only use Uber/Lyft when traveling to the US; In Japan I come into contact with the brand much more often from the context of Uber Eats.

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> I feel the Uber service itself has a sort of a 'premium' feeling around it in Japan, with the cars/staff/pricing being higher-class than the run-of-the-mill taxis you can hail.

Even for a limo-class car, it's hard to beat the Toyota "JPN Taxi" model. Thoses high roof taxis are so fine!

Besides, being able to pay with a Suica card is very convenient.

Love paying with a suica for taxi and basically anything, I've stopped taking any taxi that does not accept it and I'm considering changing my laundry place just because of this.

American here. What makes "suica" a superior contactless payment method?

EDIT: Thanks for the replies! Seems it's a more full featured version of Chicago's Ventra card.

Lots of places in Japan don't take Visa/Mastercard, so it's either Suica/Pasmo or cash. There's tons of vending machines, for instance, but they don't take credit cards, but a lot of them do take Suica. Suica is basically a debit card; you put money on it (there's terminals at all the subway stations) and then spend it on the subway/train fares and also at other places that accept it, like vending machines, taxis, and various establishments.

The only thing I didn't like about Suica/Pasmo when I was in Japan was that, unlike a credit card, there doesn't seem to be a way to get a statement so you can see where you spent all your money. But I was only there for 2 weeks as a tourist, so maybe it's possible to get access to that and I just didn't find it.

> The only thing I didn't like about Suica/Pasmo when I was in Japan was that, unlike a credit card, there doesn't seem to be a way to get a statement so you can see where you spent all your money

I use Suikakeibo [0] for that. The latest 20-ish transactions seem to be stored on the card, so by scanning it using my phone every day I could keep a history of everything I used it for. You can even put in notes, since non-transit transaction don't list what you bought with it - just the amount.

It makes for a nice reminder of my past trips. =)

[0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.mediavrog....

Wow, thanks! I'll be sure to use this next time I go there!

> > The only thing I didn't like about Suica/Pasmo when I was in Japan was that, unlike a credit card, there doesn't seem to be a way to get a statement so you can see where you spent all your money

> I use Suikakeibo [0] for that. The latest 20-ish transactions seem to be stored on the card, so by scanning it using my phone every day I could keep a history of everything I used it for. You can even put in notes, since non-transit transaction don't list what you bought with it - just the amount.

> It makes for a nice reminder of my past trips. =)

> [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.mediavrog.....

Suica cards are readable on your phone via something like farebot (on Android). I'm able to see all my suica transactions on my phone via nfc.

Pro tip I didn't learn until embarrasingly late, they can recharge it in many (all?) places that they accept it, especially in convinis. Just say "charji" and give them money + tap it.

No Fees: Suica does not charge users merchant fees. Contrast that with a credit card, which charge fees as a % of transactions. Some credit cards with contactless functionality (eg. PayWave) charge a higher % if you use the contactless method rather than inserting or swiping. If you like money, well, you get more of it by using Suica. You do have to pay a 500 JPY deposit (refundable) when you first obtain the card. You can get this back at any JR station whenever you want. Also if you're using a foreign card, you might be charged foreign exchange fees and also get a bad exchange rate (ie. the rate is almost always some % worse in favor of the bank). If you can find a more efficient way of getting JPY onto a Suica, then you can save money.

Privacy: If you care about privacy, Suica is relatively anonymous, unless you (optionally) register it. It's probably possible to link a card to someone retrospectively with CCTV, but your transaction history is not being broadcast in real-time to your bank.

Acceptance: It's also increasingly widely accepted: public transport (the Tokyo metro system is amazing and gets you just about anywhere efficiently); taxis; the pervasive convenience stores + some supermarkets; more and more retail stores. Edit: as another poster pointed out, a huge % of transactions in Japan are made in cash and it's quite common for stores to not accept credit cards, yet some of these do accept Suica.

Discounts: You might get discounts on train fares if you use Suica, too.

No battery required: The SUICA works 24/7, 365, with no need to charge it. Unless I'm mistaken, smartphones require at least reserve battery for NFC payments to work.

Suica was awesome in tokyo, but I wasn't able to use it in Osaka unfortunately. Other than that, I love it. I had the card originally but I switched to just using my phone.

How long ago was this? In the past couple of years, I believe the backend systems have been integrated so you can use Tokyo-specific cards in Osaka and vice versa

This March. I wasn't able to use Suica for the Osaka busses.

Were you using some minor bus company? To a first approximation, all Japanese IC cards are compatible these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suica#Interoperation

Actually on second thought, this happened in Fukuoka, not Osaka. In Osaka I was able to take the metro with Suica.

I ended up carrying around cash and change anyway since a lot of places in Tokyo were still cash only.

I’ve used suica from Hokkaido to Kyuushuu. Some local bus lines don’t accept it, including the one in my city, but they seem to be gradually adding suica compatibility everywhere. It’ll probably be universal in a few more years (tech adoption is incredibly slow in Japan)

Suica is produced by JR East. In Osaka, what about the equivalent card produced by JR West?

It works everywhere instantly (just tap) and you can reload it with cash in almost any train station or convenience store. I doubt there is part of Tokyo that is more than 5 minutes from a place to load your suica/pasmo card.

As comented on other thread:

Pro tip I didn't learn until embarrasingly late, they can recharge it in many (all?) places that they accept it, especially in convinis. Just say "charji" and give them money + tap it.

It’s also the fastest of any contactless card I’ve ever used. Faster than Clipper, Taipei Metro card, and faster than apple pay. Even the iPhone integration is fast.

https://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/11497078/ This (Japanese) article is an interesting read about the speed of FeliCa cards, the contactless tech Suica is based on. The speed requirement that was used when designing FeliCa was that transactions were to complete within 200 msecs, while cards in London for instance only required 250ms-500ms.

While this may be overkill performance for other countries, the number was derived from Japan Railways’ rush hour statistics and simulations, which made their target to be processing 60 passengers per minute at the gate.

As Japan has one of the highest train station utilization in the world, using contactless systems like MiFare etc. to make iPhone train payment work would probably clog the gates and not be realistic; hence, when iPhone 7 began supporting station payments in Japan, Apple supported FeliCa instead of the other way around. (The fact that smartphone users here disproportionately favor iPhone over Android also probably helped.)

About the design or Suica:

https://www.jreast.co.jp/e/development/tech/pdf_6/Tec-06-40-...

> feel the Uber service itself has a sort of a 'premium' feeling around it in Japan, with the cars/staff/pricing being higher-class than the run-of-the-mill taxis you can hail.

Isn't the average Japanese taxi some big Toyota Crown sedan already? How much more premium than that can you go?

I don't know anything about cars, but I'm pretty sure most taxis in Tokyo are the smaller variant, the Toyota Comfort. I'd describe them as comparable to most taxis (maybe cleaner than average + the automatic doors)

> Isn't the average Japanese taxi some big Toyota Crown sedan already? How much more premium than that can you go?

Toyota Century :)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/japans-new-emperor-picks-his-ri...

Edit: Super short TL;DR from the article

> Introduced in 1967, the Century isn’t for the flashy or hasty. Prospective customers can wait months because Toyota hand-builds each one. Background checks ensure the buyer is of an appropriate caliber, and not a member of an “antisocial organization”—a Japanese euphemism for the yakuza crime syndicates.

It's only sold in Japan.

Edit 2: Some more information courtesy of Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century

Wow. That’s a fine looking car.

Are we sure that's the same car used for taxis?

He's answering the question "How much more premium than that can you go"

It’s not the Century, it’s the Comfort.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Comfort

The Century was designed for CEOs and heads of state, the Comfort was designed as a general purpose Taxi.

I love that quote about Yakuza. It’s so Japanese.

Reminds me of mobsters in America driving Cadillac’s and how much that probably helped sales. I know my dad loved watching mob movies and bought a Cadillac in the 90s that was straight out of the movies.

I’m curious if there was a badass motivation there similar to middle class suburbanites owning a Harley style motorcycle.

Those background checks don't seem to be working. Lots of 'yankees' running around in pimped up centuries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E3%83%A4%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AD%...

> some big Toyota Crown sedan already

No, it's not that great nor that comfortable, but most of the time a Taxi ride is less than 10 minutes so it does not matter very much.

>>How much more premium than that can you go?

Hmmm; From my limited time in Japan / Tokyo, almost all the cars were Toyota Comforts [1]. I have not entered in a more basic and rudimentary vehicle in 25 years.

I mean, it's _fine_. Whatever. Gets you from point A to point B. You get a feeling it'll likely do so reliably, and if not, virtually everything might be fixable with a hammer. But I wouldn't have called it premium...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Comfort

P.S. The "Automatic rear doors", at least in the versions I've been in, is basically a string/lever that goes from driver to the rear door. Again, it _works_, but when I hear "Japan" and "Automatic", my mind conjures a rather different picture. However, that was true of much of my personal experience in Japan - pragmatic and reliable automation, over fancy image. And cassette tapes everywhere... :P

> feel the Uber service itself has a sort of a 'premium' feeling around it in Japan

I don't think it has any sort of feeling around it really - it's very small here and doesn't advertise, so I think you'd be fairly hard pressed to find someone off the street who's heard of it. (Unless they know it from Uber Eats that is, which does seem to be picking up steam.)

I’ve only been in Tokyo once ten years ago but I remember the regular taxis there being staggeringly expensive. Are app based rides really more expensive than that?

No, they're actually slightly more expensive than a regular taxi. The growth limiter for Uber in Japan is the strict regulation around transportation vehicles, partly due to the government's close ties with the taxi industry, and partly because I think the government wants to disincentivize car use in its bigger cities (this makes a lot of sense, since in Japan's large cities, public transportation is quite good).

Because of this, any kind of commercial activity using a motorized vehicle is highly regulated - services like UberX are impossible to launch in Japan. Even for food delivery, delivery drivers all ride bicycles.

> the government wants to disincentivize car use in its bigger cities

No need to do that, most people don't use cars to commute already - It's probably fair to say that car usage is only for the weekend shopping or driving out of the city - that's why car rental is a thing in Japan for a few years now, you don't need a car every single day of the week.

I think a big part of what makes them expensive is the massive distances you may have to travel in Tokyo.

Distances you often don't realise how large they are when using the awesome public transportation offerings.

Price per kilometer & wait time seems higher in Zurich, for example.

>Price per kilometer & wait time seems higher in Zurich, for example

I think Zurich is just a particularly expensive example. At least in the US, most places seem a lot cheaper (I checked New York, Chicago, and San Francisco). Of the few cities I checked in Europe, London is comparable but Paris, Berlin, and Rome are closer to the US examples.

Numbers come from numbeo such as https://www.numbeo.com/taxi-fare/in/Tokyo?displayCurrency=US... and https://www.numbeo.com/taxi-fare/in/New-York, just swap the city name for the other cities I mentioned.

Zurich is literally the most expensive city for taxi rides according to the latest DB report, linked here: https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/Mapping_the_worl...

Tokyo taxis are legitimately some of the most expensive in the world per mile/minute.

e.g. on my last trip home from SF, my ride to SFO cost about a third of my ride home from Haneda – both being roughly the same time and distance. if you arrive in Narita after the last train has left, have fun paying $250 to get into the city.

on the other hand, it's nice that I never feel the need to take a taxi given the great transit system, but it does rule out things like buying bulky items in person and night-time flights.

400y ($3.68 USD) for the first 1km and then 80y ($0.74 USD)/400m after that.

Wow; that's really changed since I lived in Tokyo.

Back in 2011, it was 710 JPY base fare (but I think for two kilometres?) and exchange rates were also tremendously disadvantageous for anyone USD-denominated.

It was basically 9 USD to sit down in a cab.

In central Tokyo, hailing taxis is indeed easy, but out in the burbs it's a different story. The only way to get a cab at a relative's place -- and this is 15 min on foot from a major train station in Chiba, not bumfuck inaka -- is to call the local taxi company, preferably a day in advance. This being Japan, said company is super dependable, but they also only have like 3 cabs so if they can't come you're stuck.

> oftentimes the biggest competitor to these ride-hailing apps is the fact that Tokyo's roads are so densely populated with taxis cruising everywhere that it's often faster to just hail one passing by than to open an app on your phone.

Sounds like it could work well with rideshare to save money?

>Uber service itself has a sort of a 'premium' feeling around

therein lies their brand proposition

>I come into contact with the brand much more often from the context of Uber Eats.

ubers worth is their international recognition as a premium service

That's certainly how they started, bit if you get in an Uber in a random city (particularly one where drivers are not required to be licensed by the city) your experience has no guarantee of premium (unless you book UberBLACK of course, but that's a minority of trips)

> ubers worth is their international recognition as a premium service

Anecdotal perhaps, but that's not my impression among friends & family. (based in Central & Western Europe) Unless you consider "less likely to be totally ripped off" as "premium". Which I guess it is to some extent, but taxi drivers in many western countries have set the bar so extremely low in terms of service that competing services such as Uber just need to meet the bare minimum of expectations customers would have in other industries.

In Japan meanwhile, as has been said by others, you literally get the white glove treatment in any run-of-the mill taxi and screwing people over totally goes against the grain of the local culture, so it's hard to see how other services might differentiate themselves. Plus of course, public transportation in the cities is fantastic and reasonably priced.

(We recently did a trip to Japan with our then-9-month-old, which meant we had more luggage than we'd normally like. So we ended up taking a few taxis instead of dragging it all the few hundred metres from the train station to whatever next hotel/apartment we were staying; in Europe, many taxi drivers would probably not even have stopped to pick us up if they'd seen us with all our stuff.)

>taxi drivers in many western countries have set the bar so extremely low in terms of service

>In Japan meanwhile... you literally get the white glove treatment in any run-of-the mill taxi and screwing people over totally goes against the grain of the local culture

This is the stuff that the anti-Uber crowd just didn't seem to understand. Taxis in America will routinely screw you over and drive you in circles, knowing that you probably don't know any better, just to increase your fare, and the customer service level is abominable. Japan just isn't like this: screwing customers over is just something they don't do there, and having extremely high customer service with incredible levels of politeness is just the norm there, even in simple convenience stores.

Uber got where it did in America because the taxi industry was absolutely horrible, so all it took was someone competing with them and not being as horrible and offering decent service to become wildly popular. The same situation never existed in Japan.

> Japan just isn't like this: screwing customers over is just something they don't do there, and having extremely high customer service with incredible levels of politeness is just the norm there, even in simple convenience stores.

There are a few scam stores in Tokyo, there's one that sells paintings to tourists, another one with monks that go around pushing things into your hands, and supposedly some ripoff girls bars. But not many.

Oh, but you can't get food substitutes in any restaurants and they'll deal with allergies by kicking you out of the store.

> and having extremely high customer service with incredible levels of politeness is just the norm there, even in simple convenience stores.

https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/01/language-japanese-store...

>Oh, but you can't get food substitutes in any restaurants and they'll deal with allergies by kicking you out of the store.

Yes, I saw several restaurants that warned that they don't change their recipe. It makes sense: they've optimized their process in the kitchen for those particular dishes, and aren't going to just change things around for one customer. It didn't seem to be a big problem there. So I just have to wonder: why do so many Americans these days have food allergies? This wasn't a problem decades ago. From a little bit of Googling, it seems that Japanese just don't have problems with food allergies the way Americans do. Honestly, they're right to kick you out of the store: you're too much of a liability, and they just aren't prepared to deal with people with such problems.

>https://www.citylab.com/life/2019/01/language-japanese-store....

I have no idea what your point is here. This is an article about the level of politeness to be used by retain employees (the Japanese language has several levels of politeness built-in). I wasn't talking about any details about the usage of the language by employees, I was just talking about them being polite in general, something you don't see in American stores much.

In Europe Uber is known as a cheaper and faster alternative to taxis

While I use Uber in the US, I can't say the standard UberX is any more premium than taxis in my home country (Ireland). It's just standard US taxi drivers have set the standards so low in the places I've been.

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