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Comment by pram | Hacker News Reader

Coincidentally I also just upgraded my personal laptop from a 2012 retina MacBook Pro to the 2019 i9 MacBook Pro!

Long story short I think the touchbar is totally useless. I have it set to emulate regular function keys right now (expose, launchpad etc)

However everything else is top notch and well worth it. The touchid is fantastic, and you will immediately enjoy the difference. Screen is amazing, 8 cores is super nice. Also I might be in the minority but I actually prefer the feel of the keyboard vs the previous unibody keys.

Touchbar is a dud but the 2019 version is well worth it otherwise imho.

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> Also I might be in the minority but I actually prefer the feel of the keyboard vs the previous unibody keys.

It is not the feel of the keyboard that is "hated" - it's the reliability (the feel of the keyboard AFTER it stops being new and starts being... the 2016+ rMBP butterfly keyboard).

I wonder if the 2019 keyboard is fixed, but I'm VERY sceptical.

Apple extended their keyboard service program to the new 2019 models on launch day: https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

Which is to say that Apple, too, is VERY skeptical. :-)

There are people who hate the key feel too. I think it's people who type more forcefully; the new keyboards have a nice clicky feel with a low travel distance, but they require a light touch or you're basically slamming your fingers into a solid object.

I don't know why people type like that, but they do. I wonder if there's any correlation with people who stomp their feet when they walk. It's like they never picked up on the fact that you can dial back your own movement's impact instead of just smashing into stuff and letting it stop you.

I think your analogy is a major reach, but just to run with it:

That reminds me of catlike movement (very graceful, very limited impact and noise) versus doglike (lots of movement and noise, bouncing up and down).

And as it turns out, dogs use much less energy walking than cats do. Loud “doglike” typing isn’t necessarily a sign of inexperience, it’s actually energy-efficient and comfortable.

I’ve never had RSI but I seriously fear it suddenly striking whenever I have to use one of those super-flat Apple keyboards.

Or along similar lines: most if not all piano/keyboard players (I’m fairly sure, anyway) prefer weighted keys. Why do you think that is? It’s not just so you can play loudly or softly; a digital piano can be pressure-sensitive without having a weighted response.

Not the person you're replying to.

But how would forceful typing be more energy efficient? You press harder (more muscle activation), keys travel longer (more muscle activation), and you have to move your fingers back "up" again.

Btw. the reason pianists want weighted keys is mostly because it mimics acoustic pianos. If you practice on non weighted keys and play on a piano, you would tire your fingers very quickly. Apart from that major reason, the weight gives a tactile feedback when playing that is arguably necessary to play beyond what you learn the first few years. Without it going back and forth between soft and loud requires an entirely different feedback mechanism.

But this does not IMO translate to keyboards. You're interested in the tactile feedback of the "click" that signals that the press has been registered.

I think the argument is that you spend energy to start your fingers moving and then you spend more energy to make them stop. But at least the way I type, what I think I'm doing is expending as much energy as needed to make the key bottom out, and no more energy than that.

I can buy the extra energy cost for walking because gravity is putting some force on there and you'd expend energy to counterbalance it versus just letting the ground push back.

But your fingers have exactly as much force as you put behind them yourself, so I don't know what's up with the finger-slammers. They totally exist though.

I was probably reaching with the foot-stompers comparison. Seems like a similar result, but the causes may well be unrelated.

I think what I’m saying is, to try to use your terms: small precise movements can be more tiring than bigger looser movements, because they require strong muscular control.

And, I’d argue, keyboards with deeper travel require less precise movements. You can rest your fingers on the keys so you know where you are, and it takes a comfortable longish movement to press a key rather than a tiny precise movement.

If we ignore the Apple keyboard for a moment, with DIY mechanical keyboards, you can customize travel length, travel resistance, and click. Getting the force and travel length correct, for me at least, mean I spend significantly less energy typing. My fingers and lower arms are tired if I'm using a regular keyboard for an hour.

Perhaps the optimum is not either extreme. Not an Apple like keyboard with almost zero travel, and not a keyboard from the 5$ bin, but something in between. And it's not the same for everyone.

Yes, that sounds right.

Personally, I quickly got used to Apple’s first “chiclet” laptop keyboards, which had pretty low travel, and actually enjoyed them. But I really have a very hard time with the latest generation.

I'm not sure its about energy used as much as feedback and finesse.

I prefer mechanical keyboards for the same reason I would prefer weighted keys on a keyboard: kinesthetic feedback. A weighted key gives you more direct feel of the balance of the key as it moves, which allows you to worry less about the complex muscle movements, and more about the actual music.

Once you become used to a nice, clicky mechanical keyboard, or have spent time typing on a Lenovo laptop, keyboards with travel feel much less jarring on fingertips.

Suggesting people who like travel on keyboards walk around stomping their feet is hilariously misinformed.

I've got one (kaihua browns) and like that too. But I don't type on my laptop keyboard as if it has that much key travel.

I type like this. I have found that it substantially reduces my RSI. YMMV.

The travel on a butterfly keyboard is less than 1mm. It's hard to avoid bottoming out. When you say "light touch", it means truly feather-light. A keyboard that needs to be handled so delicately has no place in my world, and will pose difficulty for many.

I'm also on the fence about upgrading. I am thinking of just buying a mac keyboard so I have an escape key. That key is very essential to my workflow. Do you think it's a good idea?

I use karabiner [1] to remap the capslock key to esc.

[1] https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/

Interesting.. so this is how the esc key is now? I guess it's compromise. Maybe I'll get used to it eventually.

Sigh I'm just sad apple wont budge on a high end non-touchbar model

Touchbar can be useful especially with apps like Pock to save some screen real estate. The only thing that they should do is to bring back ESC key and maybe allow for switching numbers row to F-keys with Fn. That would allow for rich media control and whatever you want on touchbar and still have proper, tactile functionality of keys.

No need for Karabiner if that’s all you’re using it for, you can do it natively in System Preferences → Keyboard → Modifier Keys.

Karabiner Elements is user for a more complex modifier [1]. I use Karabiner to remap Caps Lock to hyper (cmd+ctrl+option) or just esc when pressed alone.

[1] https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/complex_modifications/#modifi...

Mac OS support by default to map the Caps Lock key as an Escape key.

Back in the "old" days, nobody would have voluntarily admitted they used the regular Escape key implying their hand movement is anything less than optimal. Hell, Mac OS was praised for almost not making any use of the carpal tunnel inducing function keys.

Then the touch bar was released ;-)

For anyone else reading this, the option is found in System Preferences > Keyboard > Modifier Keys...

For more complex modifications there is Karabiner-Elements, which is especially useful if you use Hammerspoon.

Fresh - yes. But the keyboard degrades over time :(

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