Ask HN: How do you balance college and a startup? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: How do you balance college and a startup?

40 pointscharlieyan1044 comments

I'm a junior enrolled in an engineering college studying Electrical Engineering (EE) and Computer Science (CS). For anybody out there that's taking a full course-load but also involved in startups, how do you manage? What's your light at the end of the tunnel?

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It really depends on the University and major. If you're at a university that requires very little work, then you can get by. But if you're at a famously difficult major at a famously difficult university, you can't.

A lot of the more engineering focused universities (MIT, Caltech, CMU) can easily push their students to 80 hours of work a week without the blink of an eye. It's not unheard of the more difficult classes to take 60 hours a week by itself.

At any rate, good luck. I've been desperately trying to balance a startup myself with school :). However, Christmas break (now) is the real furious coding sprint.

As an EECS senior at MIT, I haven't measured how many hours a week I work, but it certainly feels like "all the time" is a pretty close guess. I think if you make the startup your priority, and take only the CS requirements (which can easily be done without taking 60-hour-week courses), and you're great at time management, it can work. I've seen at least a couple of cases of this just on my dorm floor in the past couple of years.

Worry about learning instead of your grades. You can get C's and still gain the knowledge you need for your startup. It will cut down significantly on the amount of hours you need to devote to school.

I couldn't agree more. I can take a C for about one-fifth the work of an A. I'm usually interested enough to explore the interesting material at depth anyway. I just don't do every tedious assignment.

And when your startup fails and half of what you have for finding a job is your grades, what do you do?

Granted, I've only interviewed for summer internships (and hope to never have to interview for a job), but the majority of employers didn't ask about/didn't care about my grades. Some of the best hackers I know aren't straight A students, and I agree that you don't need good grades to learn the material.

That said, I think the mentality that you only need to do the requisite amount of work to pass can be pretty dangerous. Sure, you may think you understand the course material without having to do the work, but just like with startups, the devil is in the details and the actual execution is what matters. If actually doing the work wasn't crucial to the learning, why not just read over and think about every programming assignment for 10 minutes without doing the actual programming?

I am constantly applying to interesting jobs and if I come across a good enough offer I'd be happy to leave school. Good enough has a very bar though, and I haven't found anything worth leaving school. That said, I've come across many offers that are more than enough to make a living.

I also wouldn't say that my approach is doing "the requisite amount of work to pass." Classes inherently have a lot of fluff, a lot of which doesn't really teach you anything. Take my software design class, for example. There were a few core concepts they pushed heavily and I learned those well, but I already knew the small implementation and GUI details. I could have spent the time building those out and getting the A, but I'd much rather take the time to apply those details to my startup.

It turns out that learning what I felt I needed to learn earned me a B in Software. It's different for every class, but I think it's possible to both pursue a startup and get your money's worth out of school. Unfortunately, it's often your grades that take the hit.

were your grades on your application/resume?

If your startup fails, then you don't just have your grades for finding a job, do you?

I imagine that would depend on how almost-successful your startup was. At the same time, that may make it substantially easier to get into a separate small company/mature startup (mature to the point that they're hiring).

I am not certain, but I have been interviewed by several companies for internships lately (not sure if the hiring process for jobs are the same for internships) but the interviewer always seemed more interested in my projects outside of class than my school work and grades. So, it would seem that they would be highly impressed by attempting a startup regardless of failing or succeeding.

The level of effort required to get a B instead of a C, or an A instead of a B, in my experience, is not linear at all. Getting a C just requires being conscious. Getting an A can be pretty tough (depending on school, course, instructor).

So yeah, it's a lot easier to get a C, and it's possible to get a C and have full knowledge of the material, but it's also very easy to _think_ you have full knowledge.

I'd aim for a B, not a C. If one really understands what's going on that shouldn't be tough to get, and it will give a GPA that won't cause some employers to turn an employee away. A student is more likely to actually know what class they took if they at least got a B.

I think the overarching idea is to focus on learning and not worry about the grades. Exactly what you'll end up with depends on the school, but also doesn't really matter. I'm at MIT, and here it's very difficult to both understand the material and do worse than a C. I imagine other schools are similar, but I can't really speak to that.

I agree, but you should be strategic. In courses where you could get an A with minimal extra effort, you should do it. You don't want to find out later in life that your GPA has become a limiting factor, i.e. if you're turned down for jobs or if you decide to go to grad school. Try and keep the GPA reasonable, i.e. at least a B average; it doesn't need to be spectacular.

This is going to get down-voted, but with that dual major, why are you trying to run a start-up at the same time?

I'm wondering the same thing. I have a dual major (Computer Science and Chemistry) and save the holidays I don't have any time to give a startup. :( I have way too many ideas that I want to eventually implement though, all saved in Google Docs for later. :)

I started working for a start-up sophomore year as just a EE. I decided after doing so much hacking / coding that I would like a more rigorous CS training as well.

Here are a few strategies to get by:

1. Double-count your startup as coursework. Enroll only in project-based classes. Spin off each module in your startup as a project -- e.g. Distributed Systems? Write the EC2 part. Databases? Write the Lucene part.

2. Many EE/CS departments offer bschool classes at the 400/500/700 levels. Use these to get startup advice / stay motivated.

3. Take research credits, have entrepreneurship-friendly faculty guide you through the research parts of your startup.

4. Take a semester off, work on things, come back. You'll miss out on social life, but that's a tradeoff you're making.

5. Concentrate your startup work towards the beginning of the semester, switch to coursework at the end.

6. Be hyper-vigilant about course-performance. Since you're technically constantly slacking off, you will often need to perform disaster recovery; e.g. shoot for extra credit, to make up for a midterm you didnt study for, etc.

I'm in the same boat, mate. I'm a Junior majoring in Computer Science and Engineering. Lately, I've been getting more and more frustrated at my complete lack of time that I can devote to doing what I actually care about: starting up TextMate and programming.

I've thought about a few options and to be honest, I still don't know what I plan on doing. But it's cathartic for me to think like this.

The way I see it I have a few options. Note that all require some sort of sacrifice:

1. School requires a lot of time because that's the time that's required to achieve high grades. It's not easy to get an A in a course and that often comes with doing a lot of work and assignments. Yet, it's still possible for you to learn what you actually needed to learn from the course while not doing every little tedious exercise. That frees up time.

Example: Last quarter, I had this really awful EE class. I understood the basics of the course, as evidenced by my midterm/final grades (both were 91%, some 20% above class average), yet I didn't bother to do most of the homework. That was 20% of my grade and I got a C+ rather than an A because of it. That's the sacrifice...but on the flip-side, I got a solid headstart on a personal project that I'm really excited to work on.

Second example: There's a little story out there about Zuckerburg when he was creating Facebook. He allegedly had stopped going to class or focusing on his school-work when Facebook started taking off.

2. Consider doing a major besides EE/CS if you already know how to program. That frees up your time and you could easily get work done on your startup on the side with an English or Economics degree.

3. Admit that you can't focus on a startup and get great grades at the same time. Tough-it-out for a few years and start thinking about startups once you graduate. Do things like have a life and having fun now.

4. Consider starting something with a few co-founders to alleviate some of the required invested time.

5. Think small. Don't think of a huge time-consuming idea. You don't have time for that AND getting good grades.

I'd love to talk more. Email's in my profile if you're interested.

Lately, I've been getting more and more frustrated at my complete lack of time that I can devote to doing what I actually care about: starting up TextMate and programming

Every friday night, my friends and I code from 7pm on. You should gather up a friend or two and do the same thing. You can always party on Saturdays.

If you're curious about why Fridays are a good day:

  * you don't feel like doing homework
  * you don't feel like going to sleep early
  * partying on Saturdays is enough for you
  * all the good parties are on Saturday anyway.
  * you want to feel productive

I was in EE, and in short, you can't. At my university, CS people had about 20 hours of classes a week. EE people were pushing 40's. It becomes next to impossible to give the focus required to do anything big. My advice would be to get something going during the breaks, and do maintenance during the rest of the term. Or you can drop out like I did if you're really driven and have options or the ability to create options.

There were people who dabbled in startup ideas, but any of my serious colleagues (i.e. the guy who started Kik) all dropped out/took a year off and never went back.

I don't think it makes sense to say this can't be done. I started my first startup -- and did the majority of the work on it -- while working a 40-60 hours a week job, and spending time (admittedly, not as much as I should have) with my girlfriend. It was insanely hard and stressful, and I slept very little around that time, but it was doable.

If you think it's impossible, it is.

Don't. Do one thing and do it well.

If your startup is racing against another company toward a release date, you're going to lose if you can't focus on it 100%. If not, put the startup on hold until you finish school.

True entrepreneurs can't really put their startup urge on hold. It can be a little bit dangerous. I believe good balance is a better, if not the only option.

Do you have a cofounder? Having another person there to push you and make you feel obligated to put in time even when you're swamped with school assignments is crucial. When one of my cofounders and I were working on our startup during senior year of college, we basically treated it like heavy-workload class - we scheduled set hours to get together and work every day or every other day. I didn't want to disappoint my cofounder, so I found time to work on our startup even when PSets and programming assignments were due the next day.

I was in your situation about 8 years ago. I probably made all the mistakes one can make and hopefully this will help you. Here's a few tips:

- Eat well and exercise 5 days a week. You'll probably think you're too busy for this, but IT HAS TO COME FIRST. It will help you focus and be more productive for school and the startup.

- Have a social life. Entertainment fuels creativity and productivity.

- Don't work ridiculous hours. That was probably my biggest mistake. I thought I was Superman and that I could work 9-2/3am, 7 days a week. That's about ~125 hours a week (including school of course).

It worked out for a while, but I then became extremely tired. People told me I looked like a zombie. I obviously had no social life and had stopped exercising.

The problem with this lifestyle is that it is counter-productive. It works at first, but then you become so exhausted that the more you work, the less productive you are. And the less productive you get, the more frustrated you become and you feel the need to put in even more hours.

Don't get into this vicious circle. It'll kill you. Trust me on this, been there, done that. I burnt out. Don't let it happen to you because it will take you YEARS to recover.

I think the smart way to do it is to plan your weeks properly. Schedule time off to go to the gym, see friends, etc. Schedule work hours and have at least scheduled 1 day off every two weeks. Stick to your schedule. Don't let yourself work ridiculous hours or slack off. Balance is key. It should pay off in the long run.

Have you been able to follow these pieces of advice you gave nowadays, or just a reflection on your 8-year ago?

I actually have, not perfectly of course, but pretty close to it. I have since bootstrapped another startup all the way through a successful exit, without going completely nuts like in the past!

Have a good understanding of what you want to accomplish with everything you're doing. Have a point. And realize that to do better in one thing, you'll necessarily do worse in the other. And that's OK.

I started RateMyStudentRental as a junior studying Mechanical and Electrical Engineering. I'll just say that I always knew what score I needed on the upcoming test to maintain my minimum desired grade in the class.

I managed rather badly[1] -- my grades weren't as high as I'd have liked (not that it matters much, I guess). The light was being three classes away from graduation and being able to finish up college part time, remotely. I can't say that I would recommend doing it to anyone else.

I started the semester off with 5 classes (3 art studio classes, one art non-studio and one CS class). I ended up dropping one studio art class and all but ignoring another for most of the semester.

1. In addition to working and class, there was a period where I was in 6 different cities in 8 different Thursday morning/Friday-to-Sunday night/Monday-morning weekends; Rochester (College), NYC (Home), Chicago (Conference), Washington DC (Stewart/Colbert rally), Providence (looking at a college for grad school) and San Francisco (Work + apartment hunting). This traveling didn't exactly help my focus either.

I took a gap year so I could work on my start-up first. You can't do a start0up part-time. Like you can't have babies and be part time with them.

But with dual majors it's going to be even tough for you. Just wondering that if you had to do a start-up, why did you take dual major? And if you had to take dual major - why a startup?

If I were in your shoes I'd at least drop one of those. One of these subject is enough to keep you on your toes anyways. Let alone doing both and then a start-up too. It's better to feel a little bit bad about dropping something now than face failure at all three fronts.

It's time you prioritize. What can you do and forget that you had to even eat? That's how I know what I am passionate about and I know I won't mind doing it even if no results are coming. And that's the calling you should go toward, IMO.

I'm a sophomore in college working on a startup with two other people (one a junior at my school, one who recently graduated), and our model is to work all day every Saturday. We meet up around 10am and code until 7pm or so. I get all of my school work done during the week and on Sunday, and still have time to go out on Saturday night. It can be tough saying no to activities scheduled for Saturday, but this model is definitely the best for my situation.

I don't know how it is in the US but in Australia my CS results meant bugger all after I left college. The majority of companies care far more about you doing your own personal projects and having a passion for what you than the grades you got in college.

So keeping this in mind, work on your startup as much as you can while passing your courses and you'll come out far ahead of others who get A's but don't have a single personal project or demo on their resume.

I am in the same situation.

I'm a Junior majoring in Computer Science and I have several side projects that I have been trying to finish up. However, school work takes up a majority of my time so I rely mostly on my winter/summer break to get the bulk of my personal projects completed.

You might suggest I code on the weekends but that is not a possibility as a majority of the time I have so much homework that I need to dedicate weekends to completing the assignments.

Might want to ask Marc Held of Zazu (http://www.getzazu.com/). He's around... Marc? You there? :)

Get grades good enough to keep you in college. Then eliminate all nonsense: partying, extra-curricular activities, recreational sports, etc. and go all-out on your startup, as if you were studying part-time and running a startup full-time.I'm also a junior running a start-up, and I make it a point to dedicate 32-40 hours a week regardless of exams, vacations, etc.

I am a pharmacy student in a top university in the UK, so the workload is pretty daunting. I take time to focus on my books and run my websites. I use the holiday period to build websites and during school period, read my book and run the websites (not build). This method works really well for me.

I dropped out. It worked out ok for me. (I would have been more likely to try to stick around if I could have afforded tuition, but in retrospect, I wish I'd dropped out a year or two earlier and moved directly to Silicon Valley to work on startups there).

Disregard everything else that is draining your energy. Mind you studies and start-up but keep away from all other college activities except couple of them that help you unwind or give you the support you need. After you do this, you should be just fine really!

Abshir

Its really simple as time management. Do 1 task per day/every other day for your startup (maybe 1-3 hours if you can spare) and at the end of 1 month, check your progress. Rinse and Repeat until launch. Then do the same with marketing.

focus

chances are you go to school for 4-6 hours a day at most. Then you have homework etc for another 3-4 hours(hardly). That still leaves you with 7-8 hours a day to work on your startup.

And once you finish coding, there is really no requirement to work 24/7...sure it helps...but chances are early on you'll do X, then wait a week to see the impact...because you just don't have enough traffic to split test with

Focus on what needs to get done.

Focus on finishing you degree, then do your startup. Statistically, your startup is highly likely to fail, so don't let it screw up your degree.

just do it

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