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Comment by kumosawa | Hacker News Reader

I’m from china mainland, and I stand for these protesters. At least, I don’t want them lose the right of fighting for their rights. And btw, even such huge protest happening, there is no report, no discussion in China, even message left on SNS also get censored or vanished. Terrifying.

Edit: apologize for uncertain words, it needs add a time limitation. The first protest was happening at 9th June and all Chinese media chose keep silent. And now it cannot be covered. But attention, it still be defined as a riot.

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How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you?

Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

There are some Chinese students who are studying in US universities support the CN government on this event. Even though they have access to the information, they still choose not to believe it.

It doesn't surprise me. The Chinese government isn't dumb enough to say "we want to abolish the rule of law in HK", instead they say "we want to stop rapists and murderers from escaping justice".

Honestly in most places in the world, that kind of appeal to emotion is an effective way to dismantle the rule of law. It is only because the people of Hong Kong are both highly educated and distrustful of Beijing that it doesn't work on them.

And of course they’re doing in a way that’s also reasonable. The HK law isn’t about political crimes... it just happens to be an extremely slippery slope and of course China wants that incremental movement towards total control.

Those students see the government mostly aligned with their interests and have benefits from a lifetime of indoctrination via a higher end public school system. Censorship is more for the less elite classes that don’t have those benefits.

Even then, if China decided not to censor anything tomorrow and just went with western-style spin, 80% of the population would basically still agree with the government. That they don’t bother is basically a hold over of old-fashioned thinking, and once the last cultural revolution era leader (Xi Jinping) retires, China’s government should modernize very quickly. That this leader has decided not to retire on schedule is very disturbing.

Like anything, the lack of competition and criticism makes the Chinese political culture susceptible to attacks and its propaganda weak and useless.

Censorship has worked a little too well, and it's become a nasty habit to break out of. That's why the biggest traitor in modern times is Fang Binxing, the father of the GFW, though he probably believed himself to be a patriot.

Lack of competition and criticism is the foundation of Western democracy too. Polemics is not a space where actual meaning has ever sprung from; yet try to find anywhere here or in media or in real life discussions that are not that shape. Binaries shape all we are. I do not feel I have enough knowledge to judge life anywhere but where I live. I live in the West; I experience extreme censorship of my ideas due to my gender, class and career choices.

Where do you live in the west? I'm in the us, I just don't see extreme censorship except for racist pandering comments. Don't like the president, or cell phones, or capitalism, all good. Don't like poor people, no one will try to stop you. Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking. I haven't lived in China but I see the value in people being free to ask questions, read what they want, and not be worried about being kidnapped in the night and taken to prison - those seem pretty safe as universal rights to me.

> Only if you make racist, sexist, or gay bashing comments will people try to stop you from speaking.

Beware of conflating "the ideas you express suck and we want nothing to do with you" (on either a social or an economic basis) with "you can't speak". There's a very large difference and the people who are speaking in the way you describe are absolutely begging (shout outs to Laura Loomer) to be thought of as "persecuted by the normies".

I live in Canada. I have a graduate degree in Equity stuides and have spent my life writing and working to fight racism, sexism and homophobia. It's death by a thousand cuts in the West. I am currently in St. Petersburg Russia on an art project and it is so much more open and nuturing to new ideas than Toronto ever was. On the contrary, not liking capitalism and supporting poor people comes with a very high social cost.

Well, unless you happen to be pussy riot, then Putin’s a Russia might not feel so nurturing.

Living somewhere, and contextualizing geopoltics and the difference between a citystate like St. Petersburg and a nation state (Russia), is highly recommended before concluding from afar. Though, it is certainly the mindset of our culture to do so.

I never really understood how Chinese people could live under such a regime until a read a long-form book about life in China by a New Yorker journalist who lived and reported from the for many years:

https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth-eb...

It's really hard to grasp how effective information control, combined with 20-30% of the population being "party members", and other means of control can completely convince (or more likely blind) the population from external realities.

It's hard because you can see how smart and capable Chinese-Americans (or Canadians, or whatever) are at anything they set their mind to, where it almost seems like something is missing in their culture vs the West.

The general lesser educated and poor swath is easier to understand how they can be lied to and believe. The key is the smarter-than-average Chinese who do end up getting access to outside information are thoroughly convinced by the state early on that 'western propaganda is merely constantly trying to denigrate China's great, big, neverending achievements. But not only that, they amplify all of the negative things the western countries do poorly like class or race relations or other things citizens are constantly complaining about in the media, and try to pretend they are covering up those while hypocritically trying to judge Asian countries.

It's really quite a genius type of system when you look at how successful it is, which legitimate the US contributed to with all of the pysop/intelligence community stuff that they mastered. But of course it's 100x easier in a system where media and education are entirely controlled, not just partially like in the US (the Chinese aren't just dumb drones is what I'm saying but I'm not convinced the state can maintain this delusion forever).

As a native Chinese living overseas (well US, the location might matter), I could add that it’s not necessary true oversea Chinese students will wind up pro-democracy, because 1) most were having a utopian view of US and most will be disappointed/delusioned after a few years. 2) most if not all never lived in a multi race society before, so the smallest discrimination can be 10x magnified 3)Anti-China news are often mis-interpreted as Anti-Chinese, which myself still struggling to get out sometimes (e.g. “we shouldn’t do business with mainland China” look very offensive to me)

Being offended by #3 isn't really unique. The whole anti-Israel vs. anti-Semitic thing is a good example of this difficulty. Same with people being critical of long-standing American institutions -- Americans get offended. The only time people can really make it clear in their mind whom they are criticizing is when they are criticizing a particular leader, e.g. Trump, Xi, Kim Jong Un, etc. Everything else just riles people up for no reason.

simple answer: we don't have alternatives. comparing with being meddling by USA or any foreign power, I'd rather pick CCP.

No matter how well intentioned you guys are/were, I'll say it in your face: I don't trust you. here is the problem: if you were pissed off by my remark, then how could you overcome the trust issue? if you were not, how stupid I'm going to be to trust you?

honestly, I think we deserve whatever we have right now, and so do you. how about we just do business and leave the urge to 'help' other people in the world in sci-fi books?

Helping other people in the world is all we're here to do.

Not from the west. You don't have to trust people, but you should be free to make up your own mind. Read what they say and decide.

In South Africa we used to have strict control over our news media. Having opened up, I'd rather read and watch what I want, make my mind up, and not get into trouble for voicing my opinion.

A free media fights corruption. If you have no corruption then you're a very special country.

Be free to make your own mind. The Chinese are making their own mind, right? So what the fuss?

The most funny part when the US or other western countries point fingers at Chinese having insufficient information of misinformation to decide for themselves, is that a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.

I don't know, information is just information and can be manipulated and interpreted in both ways. Is abortion a choice of the mother, or a violation of rights of the child? Are guns tools to fight oppression or ways to kill innocent people? They're both, but each side sees the other side as heretic and intolerable.

Now, don't the Chinese people know there's corrutption in the country? Don't they know there's censorship? Don't they even joke about it? US has problems and people talk about it. China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet. China is not how you think it is, no need to paint it as a monster.

> China has problems and people talk about. In public. On the Internet.

I'm sorry - but isn't that in direct contradiction to the censorship? Doesn't the censorship prevent you from talking about things that Chinese leadership thinks would reflect badly on them or the country?

> a significant portion of their population still believes in God, and in US specifically, people believe in Creationism.

They believe Creationism because the US/west offers the freedom of choice. There is no government regulation forcing you to believe in one way or the other - you choose based on your own beliefs and experience.

I don't think it's a monster at all. It's a great country. I do think the leadership isn't giving the full due set of human rights to the citizenry.

The people are more important then the current leadership.

"Just leave us alone while we're building concentration camps. Nothing to see here, move along."

It's funny to make comparison between CCP and "foreign power" as CCP was originally funded by the Soviets, which is, of course, a "foreign power". And the sad truth is that you as an individual really can't make opinions for "we" which I'd take as "Chinese people" here. The problem is that the opposite opinions to yours are getting oppressed in a unprecedented way. Lastly, "do business" doesn't mean "cheat and take advantage", as civilized people won't call IP theft as part of "business". I didn't expect to see such Wumao speech here (no matter you're paid or not) and really don't want to waste more time on your typical Wumao debates and tricks, so plz don't reply thx.

yes, CCP was funded by Soviets and it's not a secret. ideas always come from somewhere. according to your logic, USA would be impossible b/c all the funding fathers were brits, at the time. or, you were suggesting CCP is still under Russian influence? well, it's possible. besides, I don't support every move of CCP.

I'm pride not to use 'we' here precisely b/c I know I can't represent all Chinese. whom am I to claim to have that authority? I know whom I am, and I know I have blind spot in my view, and I happily to admit the fact. and I'll be even happier to know if there is any wrong with my logic. the question is, are you?

or, maybe you want to shield the light on the tactic about 'Red herring'?

Well, sure. One of the most interesting questions is whether there really is a universal human desire for liberty and democracy or whether that’s just an arbitrary cultural norm of the West. Different cultures can have different preferences and values; part of the whole reason for controlling the flow of information is to control the flow of those values.

Your comment suggests that there is a correct opinion and an incorrect opinion. This is as totalitarian as the "other side".

This issue of extradition is far from being black and white.

It's usually viewed as a protective measure more than a mechanism of oppression. And it is protective. If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being.

So, yeah, most mainlanders are aware of the censorship but it's not always viewed as inherently bad. And not just out of fear of being targeted or something. It's also easier to justify things that way when you're not even sure what exactly is being censored or why, you just assume it's probably for the better.

We allow similar censorship in the US (of things like extremist propaganda or hate speech) with a similar justification. But free speech in the US is rarely an actual threat to the authority of the government itself.

>We allow similar censorship in the US (of things like extremist propaganda or hate speech) with a similar justification.

The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand. The US government can't do anything about you hosting a website and posting extremist propaganda/hate speech on it. (the exception being speech which is _likely_ to cause _imminent lawless action... see: Brandenberg v. Ohio)

You're right, I didn't mean to compare them in that way. There is a difference between government-mandated vs corporations voluntarily censoring.

My point was just to highlight that even here in the US we accept some level of censorship. Most of us are okay with Islamic extremist propaganda or videos of violence being removed from websites if it's done to prevent future violence. And that should explain why there are so many people in mainland China who accept censorship without seeing it as excessively oppressive. Especially when they aren't fully aware of what all is being censored or why.

> The difference is that this is private companies doing it of their own volition and not by government demand.

Is this really a meaningful difference if the end result is the same?

Yes, because the alternative is the government forcing a 3rd party to provide a platform for speech they disagree with. And since that platform isn't free, you're also forcing them to spend their own resources to support it.

Those 3rd parties have rights too. They shouldn't be required to support and provide resources for speech they disagree with.

> Yes, because the alternative is the government forcing a 3rd party to provide a platform for speech they disagree with. And since that platform isn't free, you're also forcing them to spend their own resources to support it.

> Those 3rd parties have rights too. They shouldn't be required to support and provide resources for speech they disagree with.

I think people keep conflating the notion of being _able_ to say what you please and having a platform to do so. I sympathize with these people because I have witnessed the erosion of the public square as a place to promote your own ideas (with people glued to their phones, with headphones on, etc).

However, I agree that we can't force service providers to host content they disagree with _for free_ but there's a reason we require water companies to provide water to synagogues and mosques alike.

I think as we advance technologically, access to information (and the platforms through which they are spread) will be regarded as a necessity to function as a member of society and will be regulated as such.

> the end result is the same

Not even close. In China, you cannot even talk about politically-sensitive topics like the Tiananmen Square massacre. I don’t think you appreciate the massive chilling effect of its policies, and the strength of the Party’s grip on the social consciousness. It’s a different ball game.

The result isn't the same though. With hate speech there has been an open debate in society and the media about what is acceptable and what isn't, and that consensus is not complete and is regularly challenged. Even the media that is censored, such as videos of hostage executions, is often discussed widely and the content described so people still know about it andcan often track it down if they really want to, it's just not propagated in it's raw offensive form. The state censorship in China is of a completely different order.

It saddens me that so many people draw this sort of false equivalence. All it does is provide comfort and support for the sort of pervasive state imposed news blackouts and retribution against individual commentators practiced in places like China.

It's protective of the regime, not of the people.

> If you believe that widespread dissidence could lead to the collapse of your government then preventing that is a necessary evil to ensure your own well being.

Stalin/Pol Pot/Hitler and all of the 20th century's historical tyrants would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

Protects against facts. It's not even about "dissidence" which is subjective, it's about the objective facts like the body count for example.

> We allow similar censorship in the US...

Please don't try to justify the censorship in China.

Or even paint it as remotely reasonable, or like something Western countries would do.

In China mainland, there is a censor tech named Great Firewall.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall?wprov=sfti1) It just cut off the connection between China and the World Internet by blocking famous website like Twitter, Facebook etc. Only the people have eagerness of finding truth will use anti-blocking tech like VPN to find information by themselves. Of course, it’s inconvenience and sometimes not working because of outer server banned. Not sure how many people could get information by themselves. But it’s pessimistic for people living in China how willing to find the information.

Recently, because the propagation by gov, the citizens even think the GFW is protecting them from harmful information and the outside force want breaking up China rather than censorship itself. Especially, this time the protest is propagated as a riot planned by western country. Being lack of information, most citizens support gov’s standpoint.

So maybe not ignorant, just like not conscious, as a result of being accustomed.

> Being lack of information, most citizens support gov’s standpoint.

NO, because of the censorship, we do not know how many people actually support gov’s standpoint. Your statement is pure speculation and does not have any factual basis.

The Chinese government will not allow any professional organization to conduct and publish a survey like: "Do you support the censorship?", or "Do you support protest in HK?", or "Do you support shooting students in the Tianman Square", or "Do you support Xi to be the Chairman forever?"

Even the Chinese government itself does not know how many people support it and they fear the number is in fact not small, that is exactly why they need censorship in the first place.

One of the most commonly used words in their propaganda is "一小撮" [1, 2]. They always claim the people against them is only a few bad people. I never bought this even when I was in middle school. The reason is so obvious: if it is truly only a few people against you, why don't you just allow people to vote? Why don't you just allow people to speak up? The only reason you are so afraid is that you know maybe it is not just a few, and you know there is a good reason for people to stand against you.

1. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80%E5%B0%8F%E6%92%AE

2. https://www.linguee.com/chinese-english/translation/%E4%B8%8...

I suspect you're being downvoted for the big shouty capital NO, and the fact you're trying to refute someone's opinion, when they were explicitly asked what their opinion was. This came across as being negative and confrontational. Reading your post more carefully I can see your heart is in the right place and are mainly just trying to provide context and comment but the initial confrontational tone drowns that out.

This is a very open and courteous community, where a bit of generosity in interpreting people's statements, and courtesy even to people we disagree with, is highly valued and it seems to me you have some very valuable views and experience to share.

OK. I didn't know the "NO" is that a big deal.

Thanks for your voice, and pointing out the defect in my thought. I came up with my view by my observation on Chinese SNS platform, and no factual basis like a professional survey or any data could support my view. It let me feel bad that in the political environment in China which is not allowed to talk about politics freely, it's hard to find factual evidence to support my stand.

This reminds me of a discussion that I've seen somewhere, with a Russian journalist who ran to the US after becoming a target for participating in the 2011–2013 Russian protests.

- What's the public opinion of Russian people on Putin?

- There's no such thing as public opinion in Russia.

- What do you mean, I can go out, sample 1000 people and ask them a question. That's what I mean by public opinion.

- You can do that, but the result is useless. There are studies on the topic - people will just say whatever was on last week's [state controlled] news.

> You can do that, but the result is useless. There are studies on the topic - people will just say whatever was on last week's [state controlled] news.

I doubt the correlation is perfect, which makes such polls non-useless. For example, comparing questions on which the correlation is more or less strong would allow identifying the degree of trust in the state media depending on the topic they're reporting on.

Yeah but the point is that >95% of signal is drowned in propaganda. And the other point is just how much is that inconceivable to someone with access to free press, as exemplified by your response.

I've been to mainland China recently, both rural and the fast changing cities like Shenzhen.

Chairman Mao is universally revered. No one ever questions his track record on economic growth was, even though the evidence is everywhere to see.

Similarly, censorship is rarely questioned.

then you failed with your trip. Mao is highly controversial if not hated among all my family and friends. Censorship is laughed at on every level. where did you go?

Is your family inside or outside of china?

inside.

I think views on Mao vary a lot. Some members of my Chinese family suffered terribly under Mao, others did very well. My father in law's family owned some land, so they were crushed by the Communists as class enemies. My mother in law grew up in a city and went to university. Students back then could travel for free, so she went all over China with her friends as a young woman. She's no fan of Mao, but some Chinese do still revere him.

I saw a news report last year about some Chinese students that got arrested. They had been taught Marxism, solidarity with workers, class struggle, etc at University, then tried to put that into practice. They protested against unsafe working practices for cleaners and cooks, campaigned for workers rights and ended up getting arrested and sent to jail for challenging the very system that educated them to do this in the first place. Apparently it wasn't just an isolated incident and things like that happen from time to time.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/if-i-disap...

Chairman Mao is not revered by educated mainlanders.. It's not hard to find people criticizing him and it's not even that much of a controversial opinion that people would be careful about expressing it.

In my experience I found that people from rural areas and far flung provinces were far more critical of the government than people from metropolitan areas such Beijing , Shanghai etc. Even liberal, by Western standards. Might just be a sampling error but my friends from Guangxi and Yunnan are far more sympathetic to democracy, marriage equality, gay rights etc. compared to friends from Shanghai and Beijing

Because they've not yet caught up in economic status. Once they catch up, they may become as conservative.

And cities in Guangxi and Yunan are not rural. They're just not first or second tier cities, but cities all the same. When people get to live an OK life, they will become more conservative and won't like the current situation to change too much.

Beijing and Shanghai were definitely the most outspoken cities toward Western values, as they were among the first to be exposed, and the young people gather there for higher education. The change of wind means a lot.

> How common would you say it is for someone living in China to be able to have access to outside information / sites like you?

Let me answer this question as well, because, well, I'm entitled.

It's very very rare to see Chinese people use VPN other than for maybe to play games, most people here is just living, don't even curious about the outside world. Even worse, among those who did got out, some saw those China's wrong doings and then they choose to simply denial.

And is the very reason of why it is important to spread information: To establish some basic understanding. It's not about who is wining, not about trade war, it's not about tech superiority or smear tactics, it's about basic right and wrong.

Recently, the government issued a series of laws and regulations to further limit Chinese people's ability to access information outside of China by making it straight out illegal. And some individuals already been punished for just using a proxy.

Also, since June 1, the GFW has been upgraded to block any high risk unknown traffic, which is intended to stop Shadowsocks and other traffic encryption tools that can be used to by pass GFW's screening. It's very effective, many people lost connection with their proxy because of this.

HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!)

And I must say, HongKongers is really bad at resonating with others, especially with mainlanders. They must know that many people in mainland is actually quite supportive of some of their protects, we both want real democracy in our country and we are NOT enemies (Well, at least on this subject, we still love tax-free milk and iPhone so).

> Does everyone mostly understand that the government censors things to such an extreme but because of a fear of being targeted choose to not say anything, or would you say that most people are actually genuinely ignorant?

Young people who don't interested to see outside world are also not interested in figuring out what's really going on[0]. Old people who actually felt the pain knows more about the pain.

I also want to add, even in China, under such heavy censorship, people still blaming the government in some ways. So I don't think it's just "genuinely ignorant", but more of a "so what you can do about it?".

[0] An unrelated but "interesting" pic for you: https://twitter.com/1240883174Hu/status/1050010276584550400

> HongKong is Not a sovereign country, if people in HongKong eventually failed, then they will face the same thing in the future. Which is the reason why they must try not fail. (If they do, then welcome to West Korea, comrade. May our dear supreme leader bless you!)

Hong Kong people are trying to do their best--after all, with no army of its own, 2 million people went to the street to voice out, peacefully--but support from mainland China, and from the rest of the world (not necessarily US) would definitely help. And we do thank the attention and support we have been receiving in previous weeks, which led to the suspension of the extradition law.

We know the battle is not over yet, not before the resolution regarding 2047 (50 years from the handover in 1997) is clear, not before the fate of Hong Kong's autonomy is sealed.

> And I must say, HongKongers is really bad at resonating with others, especially with mainlanders. They must know that many people in mainland is actually quite supportive of some of their protects, we both want real democracy in our country and we are NOT enemies (Well, at least on this subject, we still love tax-free milk and iPhone so).

Thank you for your support.

I, for one, do not treat mainland people as enemies, and I think many Hong Kong people share my view. If you can point out concretely how Hong Kong people have been misunderstanding mainland people, please let us know. We want to speak in a way that more people can understand.

Indeed, my read as an expat living in HK is that HKers treat mainland China Government as an enemy, not so much the people. It's even said clearly when you go to the protests, people complain about the Beijing government...

A friend of mine who is from the mainland but spent most of their life in the United States went to HK a few years ago. They told me that traveling on a PRC passport really set off the immigration folks, and that even day to day folks were fairly rude -- to the extent that they attempted to mimic a Taiwanese accent.

I think it's unfortunate, but understandable, that there's a certain amount of contempt for mainlanders beyond "love the people, hate the government" as the problems go beyond the government (e.g. affluent mainlanders stocking up on 'safe' supplies from HK).

> If you can point out concretely how Hong Kong people have been misunderstanding mainland people, please let us know. We want to speak in a way that more people can understand.

I think there is a disinformation campaign against Hong Kong people here at mainland (Actually, this should be "in fact", not "I think").

During the Umbrella Movement, I asked around for people's opinion, many believes HongKongers was seeking for separation rather than democracy. One thing that makes such disinformation campaign easy, I think is because the slogan is not hitting the real goal. It could be more clear if something like「我要真民主 (I want real democracy)」is run a long side with the slogan「我要真普選」. The key is to leave no gap for those disinformation campaigners to operate.

Also, 蝗蟲論 (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%9D%97%E8%9F%B2%E8%AB%96) is very harmful. Many of my family member, even young ones believes "HongKong people thinks we are locusts". I personally view this objectively (In short, "Then why you go there and brought all of their milks?"), but many people don't.

Communication is important, you know. The two side must understand each other better so the common goal might be reached. Don't be fall to the trap and got Divide and Conquered.

Thanks for taking the time to write a detailed reply.

> I think there is a disinformation campaign against Hong Kong people here at mainland (Actually, this should be "in fact", not "I think").

I have read some news articles along those lines, so I agree that's likely. And to be honest, this is expected.

> During the Umbrella Movement, I asked around for people's opinion, many believes HongKongers was seeking for separation rather than democracy. One thing that makes such disinformation campaign easy, I think is because the slogan is not hitting the real goal. It could be more clear if something like「我要真民主 (I want real democracy)」is run a long side with the slogan「我要真普選」. The key is to leave no gap for those disinformation campaigners to operate.

That's an interesting suggestion, which I have not thought of. I do think these details, especially the key slogans, need more work because they are important.

I think the deeper cause of these gaps and lack of clarity is that, their target audience was Hong Kong people, so the protestors missed how it would have been perceived by mainland people, and this is a real missed opportunity.

> Also, 蝗蟲論 (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%9D%97%E8%9F%B2%E8%AB%96) is very harmful. Many of my family member, even young ones believes "HongKong people thinks we are locusts". I personally view this objectively (In short, "Then why you go there and brought all of their milks?"), but many people don't.

Thank you very much for your honest opinion. Points taken. And yes, I have heard of those sentiments towards parallel importers who are mainly from Mainland. At the same time, Hong Kong people have been blaming the Hong Kong government for its incompetence in balancing the needs for local residents and handling the mass demand from parallel importers. It would be better if the whole situation is kept civil.

> Communication is important, you know. The two side must understand each other better so the common goal might be reached. Don't be fall to the trap and got Divide and Conquered.

I completely agree, thanks for the words.

In my bubble where people who has attended top schools and chose to stay in China. Almost all of them are aware of what is being censored. But people are too busy with earning their next million to care about those censored political topics.

It seems the information flows to certain populations. I work for an US based company with an office in mainland China. Pretty much everyone in the office knows about the stuff happening in Hong Kong.

Does the satellite office proxy web traffic via the HQ?

Not proxied via HQ but there is a VPN of course for things like github, Gmail etc. but point is people are at least to some level consuming the info that is available and not sticking to only mainland based sources. I would imagine certain portions of the population have greater access than most.

Is the internet at your office filtered? I've heard of offices for foreign companies being unfiltered, but I haven't seen it firsthand.

I was in mainland China recently. Many tech and manufacturing companies realise they need Facebook and Google to communicate with their customers. So their employees routinely use VPN, even though it's technically illegal.

What’s probably more important is where is the information being published and in what language. If something important is happening, but it’s not in the NYTimes or HN AND in English, I’m likely to miss it.

Are you sure there are no discussions about this in mainland? I don't go to a lot of forums but at least I have seen lots of discussions on NGA and tieba. I am sure that there are even more discussions happened in Hupu, douban, KDS, and the countless QQ group chats. Even the threads got removed after a while, it still counts because people knows about the event and exchanged ideas.

False statements like this appeals to the Westerners but it worsens the misunderstanding between us, which is counterproductive if you want a more open and free China.

Proof: https://imgur.com/a/FbofCOK

I did wonder what the coverage on the mainland was like. No coverage seemed like the most likely outcome.

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