India Plans to Launch Moon Mission in July | Hacker News Reader

India Plans to Launch Moon Mission in July

bloomberg.com

169 pointsadventured92 comments

Before some western-media starts their well known statement like "India is a poor country and they need to focus on their healthcare, education etc before wasting money on Space projects like this".

They need to examine themselves, "Have we ever said above statement when our country lobbying for multi-million/billion dollar defence deals from India?"

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?...

Reminds me of this letter, from Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger to a nun with similar question.

You could just adopt that statement to our western problems. "We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans before wasting money on space projects like this".

I like to think:

"We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans while also investing money on space projects like this".

I also think that's the right approach.

I think you could argue we need to focus on our healthcare and education as well

GPS was developed by the military for missiles and jets, operated by the Air Force, although the time reference is provided by the US Naval Observatory (as I recall).

The intensely visceral nature of defense tends to motivate some exceptionally creative thinking. Primary research may have been done a long time ago, but early applications are often first recognized and funded by the DoD.

The Hubble is essentially a Keyhole satellite turned 180 degrees.

A non-trivial number of the US weather satellites are in place to secure US ships and aircraft ahead of significant weather events. E.g. the DMSP is operated by the Air Force (1).

The DoD has a $70B research budget and spends over $1B annually on medical research alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satelli...

I don't understand why are you replying to a dot? Or OP edited the comment?

op edited.

I realized my comment was factually wrong but HN doesn't allow deleting, only editing.

I thought editing was impossible on HN once someone has replied. Seems it is Karma dependent.

Nope just a window of time

Caring for the defense of your country is a top priority, above even education. Placing a flag on the moon is a much lower priority. If they only have enough money for some of those things, then caring for the defense and health care should be done before spending money on a symbolic flag planting

I disagree, a moon landing would be a signal to Indians and the rest of the world that India can compete on the highest technical level.

I think it would go a long way towards abolishing the notion that the Indian tech community is a budget option lacking in quality.

I wish them the best of luck and look forward to seeing the results.

Actually, the Indian Moon Mission is more than just a moon landing. It'll be the first time that any vehicle lands on the south polar region of the Moon. Find out more here on the scientific objectives for the mission - https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-mission

I've been reading up on it more since commenting. I'm really impressed by the ambitiousness of the project.

I am excited to hear that they plan on sending people soon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Pro...

Chinese have already landed on far side of the moon with their Chang'e 4 [0] mission.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_4

That is not the south polar region though.

I don't see landing on the moon in 2019 as quite the same technological feat that it was in 1969, so I doubt that it will abolish any notions about the Indian tech community. If anything, it establishes the notion that India is willing to spend exorbitant amounts of money to increase national pride.

> I don't see landing on the moon

Good thing only a handful of people care about what you see then...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

It would have been, if ISRO had hit their own projected timelines. They have been mucking it up for quite a while.

That said I'll be rooting for them.

Obviously, we have many problems.

Solving one problem after other doesn't work in real-life. Things should be handled simultaneously.

Coming to defense,

If you look through the Indian history, It is one of the most exploited country for several different reasons.

Considering our huge population, we are in short of defense equipment from very long time, until many years we don't have money to buy.

Different branches of defense were requesting government for equipment from so many years. Now NDA government is buying.

If whole world is one country, obviously it would have been a much better place to live, but what we have is what we have.

We have disputes with Pakistan, China.

China is extending their defense around Indian borders.

In-case China attacks India, then we should be sustainable enough to at-least defend the attack.

Edit: India uses ~2.4% of GDP, which is similar to many other countries.

People seem to ignore the benefits of national goals like the space race. Look at the surge in Physics PhD’s during the Apollo program:

https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/upload/trends-phd0214...

“I want to grow up and work for NASA, be an astronaut, etc” can give people the desire to work harder on their education. There’s a halo effect.

Not to mention that when you have your own satellites then it helps in a lot of things as opposed to relying on other's satellites

> Before some western-media starts their well known statement like

This is a straw man. Nobody is saying this except people in India. At least not to any greater frequency than Western space programs are questioned domestically.

You're kidding, right? Here's a sample back from Nov-13 when India launched the Mars orbiter:

This is The Guardian saying: "Such expenditure is, however, controversial, with some questioning whether India, where more than 40% of children are malnourished and half the population have no toilets, can afford the mission."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/india-mars-pro...

Here's the Financial Times saying "India’s Mars ‘fantasy’ defies earthly woes":

https://www.ft.com/content/235c487a-dd52-11e1-8fdc-00144feab...

Here's another from a publication I hadn't really heard of:

https://guardianlv.com/2013/11/india-mars-mission-to-launch-...

Here's The Economist hiding it under a thin veneer of appearing to justify the expenditure: "Some launches may be mere vanity projects, but satellites can have real benefits too"

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/04/...

Here CNN doesn't use "poverty" but calls it an "escalation in Asia's space race"

https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-spa...

But it isn't just the western media. It's actually just the left, everywhere. Even in India. Like this:

https://zeenews.india.com/news/space/amidst-euphoria-some-vo...

The UK cancelled their space programme immediately after achieving orbit. Seems reasonable to have a view on how other nations are approaching it. Particularly when it's a nation we give hundreds of millions in development aid to.

I skimmed the first link you post - it seems quite balanced, despite your quote, and quotes those who are in favour of it too.

> It's actually just the left, everywhere

The FT is "the left"? That's a first.

I have no problem with India doing whatever it wants and prioritising certain things above others. I do object to my taxes funding foreign aid to a country that have a well developed nuke program, a big military and a burgeoning space industry. Good for them but not with my money thanks.

Don't fret. Foreign aid to India is rapidly declining. In fact, for the past 3 years India has been a net donor of aid than a receiver[1].

Total US Aid to India is also rapidly declining on a year-on-year basis. $180M in 2016, $102M in 2017, $85M in 2018, $30M (so far) in 2019.[2]

[1] http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-...

[2] https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/IND?fiscal_year=2019&measure=O...

True, but aids are used to project soft power and also to get lucrative defense deals with India and which USA did get billions so that tone really is unwarranted

I don't live in the US.

If a poor country spends all its money feeding its citizens chances are it will stay poor.

If they invest in the future chances are there will be better jobs in the future and less hungry people.

Yeah I don't see what that has to do with my comment. I don't want my taxes sent to subsidise their space industry, nuke program or military. Not a big ask really.

This discussion is about India. Why are you bringing in Israel?

I see what you did there. But I don't live in the US, if I did I would feel the same about that funding.

> I do object to my taxes funding foreign aid to a country that have a well developed nuke program, a big military and a burgeoning space industry

Talk to your elected representatives about that.

Where is the foreign aid given to India to develop its space industry? Never heard of it before.

India has to push on all fronts. Increasing momentum in tech advancements is especially important. Focusing only on poverty/water scarcity/culture would be narrow minded.

Besides, I can't imagine how exhilarating it will be for the engineers actually working towards this. I'm sure engineers here will relate with the need to "implement it themselves" when trying to understand or build confidence in a particular area/concept. It does not matter that it has been done before. Why should it just be for acknowledgement from other countries?

>India has to push on all fronts. Increasing momentum in tech advancements is especially important. Focusing only on poverty/water scarcity/culture would be narrow minded.

Why? There's tons to do at that level, and money can be much better invested there (with huge returns even for tech and innovation) than some me-too moon landings.

You get more innovation by getting people out of poverty and into tech school, than by sending some mission on the moon with people starving...

ISRO is also helping to launch satellite's designed by students for free.

https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/isros-new-pslv-varian...

https://theprint.in/science/isro-to-launch-free-satellite-tr...

Why is there so much hostility against an achievement that is still pretty rare? How many countries out of all the countries can boast about their space program?

Why does everything have to be so political. People are ready to take a Jab at Modi's govt at every single opportunity.

They are taking a jab at Indian government. They took a jab even when Modi was not in power because the "west" says "India is a poor country and should focus on food security than space program"

It is pure racism? I'm not sure of the exact term.

P.s. I remember such a cartoon when India had asked for some missile technology few decades ago.

It is not about Modi but about general attitude of the west towards India

I don't think it's racism, just media-reinforced ignorance, and a disconnect that's normal with such a big geographic disconnect and a rapidly changing country.

Yes, even I was not sure if it is racism these days. But it was racism back then.

These days it is just the mentality stuck in the 70s!

Having spent considerable time in India, I might argue that running water and sanitation might be a bigger accomplishment than landing on the moon. Much of India is profoundly poor — some of the worst absolute poverty I have ever seen anywhere on Earth. Sending rockets to space seems to be a mission of vanity and pride more than an actual benefit to the Indian people.

The space program proved to be a boon when there was a severe cyclone in the state of Odisha

Entire state was devastated and yet few people lost their lives because they were able to predict the cyclone and take measures for safety.

Your argument has merit, I live in India! But the thing is, if we were a country that starves its poor folk while running behind space program then you are 100% right

But Indian government has typically worked for lifting people out of dire poverty. Just look at standard of living. This Modi govermnet has taken social steps way beyond ex govt. Modi govt has deposited aid money straight in accounts of people. Thus reducing corruption

So India is doing both, sanitation, road and space.

tehlike's response earlier in the thread is particularly appropriate here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20171915

Exactly! We just see the price but not the inventions or background technology created as a by product of space research

Why can't we do everything together? India has enough budget. Just needs to make execution right and corruption free.

have a look at how India cleanest city manages its waste - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyTzv3L2WVc

This is par for course in all matters cultural. I've been appreciating how little the occident introspects of late.

I'm currently reading Veena Talwar's book "Dowry Murder", which documents how economical legislature driven by colonial greed was more causal in increasing violence against women, as opposed to the favoured theory that this was intrinsic to the "barbaric" natives. Within these pages, you find old war stratagems of "civilizing the barbaric natives" being perfected over the years, as the East India Company acquires a taste for blood after conquering and ruling Bengal. In fact, some of these techniques are so cliched, that you can see similar propaganda ops being pulled for the wars in the Middle East, Vietnam and now China.

I encourage you to read "an era of darkness"

>I'm not sure of the exact term.

Prioritization.

Chandrayaan-2 homepage: https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-home

This will inspire a generation of Indians. If any country can have a space program, they should. Like Elon Musk says, solving one problem after another is necessary but not sufficient. People need to feel hopeful about the future. The 1969 Moon landings have inspired a whole generation in the West. Despite of the high costs, we are still reaping its benefits. I am a huge fan of all agencies, ISRO, NASA, ESA, CNCA, Roscosmos etc.

The first mission in this series Chandrayan-1(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1) had provided more evidence of presence of water on moon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water

> ISRO’s next priority is the $1.4 billion Gaganyaan mission, which aims to put three Indian “gaganauts” -- at least one of which will be a woman -- into orbit.

According to this wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronaut, they are vyomanauts, coined from the Sanskrit word व्योमन् (vyoman meaning 'sky' or 'space').

The wiki has some interesting terminology as to what spacecraft crew members are called by different space agencies.

Dryden preferred "cosmonaut", on the grounds that flights would occur in the cosmos (near space), while the "astro" prefix suggested flight to the stars.

In English-speaking nations, a professional space traveler is called an astronaut.

NASA applies the term astronaut to any crew member aboard NASA spacecraft bound for Earth orbit or beyond.

By convention, an astronaut employed by the Russian Federal Space Agency (or its Soviet predecessor) is called a cosmonaut in English texts. The word is an anglicisation of the Russian word kosmonavt

Polish uses kosmonauta and astronauta, and the two words are considered synonyms.

In Chinese, Yǔ háng yuán (宇航员, "Space-universe navigating personnel") is used for astronauts and cosmonauts in general, while hángtiān yuán (航天员, "navigating outer space personnel") is used for Chinese astronauts

The term taikonaut is used by some English-language news media organizations for professional space travelers from China.

With the rise of space tourism, NASA and the Russian Federal Space Agency agreed to use the term "spaceflight participant" to distinguish those space travelers from professional astronauts on missions coordinated by those two agencies.

and the Indian Space Research Organisation hope to launch a spacecraft in 2022 that would carry vyomanauts, coined from the Sanskrit word व्योमन् (vyoman meaning 'sky' or 'space').

In Finland, the NASA astronaut Timothy Kopra, a Finnish American, has sometimes been referred to as sisunautti, from the Finnish word sisu.

A proper terminology would be "Vyom" + "maan" (like shaktiman - someone with shakti/power).

Vyoman. almost sounds like Woman. :D Even sounds similar to "Viman" (Vee-maan) which stands for planes/flying ships in sanskrit.

> Vyoman. almost sounds like Woman. :D

The word vyomanaut (vyo‧ma‧naut) is a portmanteau of Sanskrit vyoman (sky or space) and the suffix -naut which forms nouns meaning a voyager.

This reminds me of my childhood days when every Sunday I'd watch Captain Vyom and then Shaktimaan on Doordarshan.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Vyom

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktimaan

Just going to leave it here

Quotes from anime Space Brothers

Tomii Ryūnosuke: The American thinker Buckminster Fuller once called our planet "Spaceship Earth." On the other hand, British scientist James Lovelock stated that our planet was a life form named Gaia. I was always puzzled by the contrast between spaceship and life form. But the British scientist Richard Dawkins helped tie it together. Humans can be considered the Earth's genes. The planet is trying to self-replicate. That is natural behavior for a life form.

Tomii Ryūnosuke: Michael Ende once compared humans to cancer cells, but I believe that humans are germ cells. However, there is the possibility that any of us could become the cancer cell that destroys Earth.

Tomii Ryūnosuke: If we are truly Earth's genes, the purpose of space exploration is because mutation is necessary.

> Chandrayaan, which means “moon vehicle” in Sanskrit

Doesn't Chandrayaan mean a journey to the moon?

"Chandra" [चन्द्र] is one of the Hindi/Sanskrit words for the Moon. Other examples are chaand and chandni.

"Yaan" [यान] means vehicle/coach.

Chandrayatra means journey to moon.

That would be Chandraayan: moon + journey/path. Chandrayaan is moon + vehicle.

Chandraayana would mean "Journey by/to the moon" as in Ramayana or Uttarayana.

Chandrayaana means moon vehicle.

The thing that annoys me is that ISRO uses Hindi naming convention rather than the Sanskrit. Visarga is a thing.

The budget of ISRO (their NASA) for what they have accomplished is amazing.

It is critical for India to retain the talents of own people rather let them be poached by HB1 visa's and eventually emigrating to the US.

It's indeed "the west" that's in need of advice like this. I'd be a bit weary of neo-colonialist arguments like this as well. There's a sense of entitlement there that is increasingly at odds with the facts.

I think the west might need to wake up to the notion that increasingly China, India and others are running the show according to their own agendas rather than following in the footsteps of the west. A lot of the CEOs of companies like Google, Microsoft, etc. are Indians. Lots of Indians are also active in core industries in the US and the EU. Likewise, lots of Chinese can be found across our industries at all layers and both are primary customers for our best universities. Both have the education, expertise, and economies to produce a moonshot. And neither of them is lacking in ambition. I think it's become more a question of when than if, and sooner rather than later.

Either way, there's a new space race on and I think this is a good thing. We've been stuck not getting back to the moon mostly for budgetary and other non technical reasons. It's about time people go back there.

The "west" is busy with their political agendas.

Mr Trump thinks Mars is a part of moon. And NASA isn't getting funding due to myriad reasons

Countries like India take pride in space achivements and defense related ones

That's why India China are shooting ahead while west is seemingly lagging behind

I read somewhere that ISRO is able to launch satellites at fraction of a cost as compared to SpaceX.

"Shooting ahead" == repeating what the west did 50 years ago. Interesting definition of shooting ahead. The west (as if that's even a coherent body for topics like this) has many problems. Being overtaken by India isn't one of them. So far it's all "we want to do this, we want to do that" - I want to be a billionaire, doesn't make me one. We'll see if they can pull it off.

> I read somewhere that ISRO is able to launch satellites at fraction of a cost as compared to SpaceX.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Well, shooting ahead of themselves :)

I didn't say West is lagging behind India or India shooting ahead of the "west"

Our competition is with ourselves and not with others.

Coming to cost of ISRO vs SpaceX

> There is also a big difference in terms of cost per mission. For example, the Falcon 9 launch vehicle’s cost per launch comes up to $62 million, while ISRO’s Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) costs roughly $15 million per launch.

Source: https://www.thequint.com/tech-and-auto/tech-news/isro-vs-spa...

To be fair, Indians have a long tradition of being the 'sepoys' of the Western civilization - two world wars, a large labour breeding nation, and perhaps the bulwark of the next "opium" war.

The space program department[1] is under prime minister authority. So, this is the obvious one.

[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Modi_ministry

Looks like another PR move by the Modi government.

How is this parent comment getting upvotes? Stop spreading false information. This mission was approved in 2008 by the then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2

Mission will be ready for launch in ~2 months time, how is this a PR move? Did you even read the article?

No its not a move by his govt. This is a multi year effort. But you can be 100% sure that they'll project it as his victory. This is pretty common nowadays.

I'll be very happy if they pull this off without creating a massive cloud of orbital debris like their last "space triumph".

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/02/world/asia/nasa-india-spa...

That was the DRDO, analogous to USA DARPA. The Moon mission is from ISRO, analogous to NASA.

That it was done isn't the issue. It's that nobody there acknowledged the problems it created and gave their complete approval. It doesn't bode well for their future attitude toward creating hazardous space junk.

Everyone was wondering why ISRO launched the target into such an odd orbit.

IMHO, DRDO cannot be equated with DARPA.

DARPA tries to solve every challenge, irrespective of the field, by opening contracts to the national public and holding contests among them. The winning solution is often adopted for further enhancement.

India is very fortunate to attempt this feat* in 21st Century.

1. 1991 USSR Collapse

2. Technology today

3. NASA insufficient funding

4. Globalisation

Visit public-hospital at any sub-district/Taluk or any public-school in a remote village.

I mean, potential is very high but most of it is misplaced. Chandrayaan, Mangalyaan & Gaganyaan are easier today as opposed to improving public health & education.

> this feet

Feat maybe?

what do you mean?

Not sure what are you trying to say here? Do you mean that India should scrap such projects in favour of public health services?

What,exactly, are you on about?

Moonshine.. maybe.

There's no evidence to prove that diverting funds to social programs instead of silly space missions will benefit the needy in the long run. Rather, investing in science and technology might solve these social problems. See response from NASA scientist to a nun for similar question.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?...

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