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Comment by icedchai | Hacker News Reader

This makes the new Mac Pro look like a bargain... especially after you adjust for inflation.

My dad and I found one at a garage sale when I was a kid. I bought, repaired, and resold mostly 8 bit machines, but found a big bunch of Apple Lisa stuff for not a lot of money, maybe $150. I didn't really know much about it, but it was interesting and I figured I could get my money back out of it. It had the computer, three external hard disks (2x5MB and 1x10MB), and some software and other accessories.

This would have been around 1988-1989, and the Mac had been out for a while; this seemed like a quaint old computer at the time. Since the Lisa wasn't quite Mac compatible, there wasn't really anything you could do with it...the software it had (early variants of stuff like Mac Write and Paint and such, called, I think Lisa Write, etc.) was what you got.

When I unboxed everything I found the receipts from when the original owner bought it all new. He'd spent something like $20,000+ on the whole setup. Computer was $10k, and each of the hard disks was several thousand dollars.

I sold the whole setup for about twice what I paid for it (I seem to recall about $300, but it's been a long time, and it wasn't super memorable...I bought and sold a lot of weird old computers back then), after cleaning it up and testing everything and tinkering with it until I was bored (I was a Commodore kid with a C128D and saving up for my first Amiga...Apple stuff was just a curiosity, not anything I wanted for myself).

Though I wasn't super into it at the time, it's one of the few things I kinda wish I still had all these years later. It has real historical significance that I didn't really appreciate at the time.

I think the difference is between productivity gain. In these early days, you bought a computer or you had to use a calculator and paper. It's the difference between automating a dentist or realtors office or not doing automation.

Now, buying a new computer results in marginal productivity gains because likely it's just replacing another computer and maybe improving things or maybe just adding a touch-bar.

You mean adding fresh bugs and anti-usable features.

There are a few things you can do by adding expensive hardware, but they're generally limited to advanced media processing, like video editing and raytracing. Maybe a few medical tricks.

(Gaming does not count, it scales to generally available hardware.)

coincidentally I just looked these up the other day:

Apple Lisa 1983 $9,995 ($25,143 in 2018 dollars)

Apple Macintosh 128k 1/24/84 $2,495 ($6,000 in 2018 dollars)

Macintosh II 3/2/87 $5,498 ($12,125 in 2018)

Next Cube 9/18/90 $10,000 ($19,177 in 2018 dollars)

Now do SGI workstations!

I remember 25k SGI workstations back then

I bought a 25 MHz NeXTstation in 1990 for the low, low price of $3,995. $7,500 in 2018 dollars.

In hindsight I should have bought Apple stock. Oh well.

Had to look it up. Would be worth ~$0.5M today

I was probably happier not knowing that...

A Xerox Star makes the Mac look cheap at $16,000 in 1981 dollars, which would be roughly $40,000 in today's money.

The Lisa was also much, much nicer to use.

$25k after inflation. I had no idea it was that expensive!

It was cheap, compared to the Xerox Star it was "inspired" by...

True. But consider about 2.5 years later, you could've got an Amiga for 1/8th the price.

The IBM PC in 1981 cost $4,500 to $8,500 in today's money. The original Mac would cost $6,000 if released today. Computers have become a great deal cheaper in the ensuing decades.

My Apple II cost around $1k in 1978, about $4k today. That was without a disk drive.

Today, a Rasbpi costs $5.

Holy freakin' cow.

The Raspberry pi is a killer deal.

When I was in college in the mid 2000s my senior project needed a single board computer. We spent $500 on a small PC104 board with a 100MHz National Instruments Geode (x86 compatible) process. That didn't include any RAM or storage. I really wish the Raspberry PI would have been available back then. Especially the Raspberry PI ecosystem, makes interfacing with stuff so much easier. We interfaced a small LCD I found at a surplus shop and it took us weeks to get it working. No you can buy a touch screen LCD for $30 and there are libraries to get it working in about 20 minutes.

Bill Machrone, long-time editor of PC Magazine, coined a "law" that the computer you wanted always cost $5,000. Which held reasonably true for a rather long time. It broke down maybe about 10 years ago although, as with the latest Mac, you can still get to $5K without too many gymnastics for pro video work or high end gaming.

Huh, pretty good.

I'd say it's now $3,750 for the whole setup.

$3,000 for the tower/laptop plus docking station [1] [2], $650 for dual monitors [3] [4], and $100 for peripherals [5] [6] [7].

And that's with Amazon + non-Mac.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-20ER002KUS-Windows-Professio...

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Docking-40AJ0135US-Ge...

[3] https://www.amazon.com/Dell-27-Inch-LED-Lit-Monitor-S2719DGF...

[4] https://www.amazon.com/WALI-Standing-Adjustable-Capacity-MF0...

[5] https://www.amazon.com/CORSAIR-K55-RGB-Gaming-Keyboard/dp/B0...

[6] https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Lag-Free-Wireless-Gaming-Mou...

[7] https://www.amazon.com/SteelSeries-QcK-Cloth-Gaming-Mouse/dp...

Is it really the computer you want if you can't run the software you want on it?

Given the various gaming peripherals the parent lists, I'm guessing that they may prefer a Windows system.

What software do you want to run?

Windows is fantastically supported: Microsoft Office, Adobe suite, AAA games, Active Directory, databases, browser and browser plugins, and a thousand others.

You can configure a desktop for way cheaper than that and it can run 90% of modern games. Just don't get the latest generation top of the line Nvidia/AMD card, either get the previous top of the line one or a decent mid-range one (check benchmarks when choosing).

Don't get the most expensive RAM or CPU, you lose 10% real performance but you halve your budget.

Yeah, knock off $1000 or more if it's a tower.

> Computers have become a great deal cheaper in the ensuing decades.

By the way, it turns out people think "automation is replacing jobs in manufacturing" because they've misread the data showing them just how much cheaper computers have gotten since then, and therefore how much more computer one factory employee can make.

My parent’s Mac II cost over $6000 at the time we got it. Compared to the IBM PCs at the time, the 640x480 hires display was stunningly gorgeous!

The Mac II was released in 1987. On the PC side, VGA cards were introduced a year earlier and could do those resolutions.

Do you have any idea what a VGA card cost at the time, or what a VGA CRT would run you?

Your comparison is hardly apt.

Compared to a Mac II, it was pretty cheap.

VGA 640x480 was 16 colors, wasn’t it? The Mac II did 256 colors at that resolution.

The software side also helped. Windows (¿mostly?) ran a fixed palette, while the Palette Manager on the Mac made it easy for applications to pick whatever color (out of 16M) they wanted.

On the hardware side, most PCs still had monochrome monitors, and even those with color monitors didn’t typically have ones as good as the Trinitrons that Macintosh IIs often had.

So are we talking about what was available or what people could actually afford? Because if it's the later, the Mac II was much more expensive than even the highest end PCs.

You're right though on the color palette. I never understood why Windows nor its applications didn't change it to something less garish than the default CGA palette.

I think we’re talking about what people saw. If you saw a Mac II, chances were quite good that it either had a Trinitron display or that monochrome vertical one.

If you saw a PC with a color monitor, chances were that monitor was moved over from a DOS machine, and dated from the 320x240 era.

My first Mac (512K) and Imagewriter cost north of $5,000. I still remember paying for it with cash from anything I could sell, a cheque with the money I'd saved for months, and the rest was on my newly acquired VISA card.

When I think about that investment as a ratio to my disposable income at the time, I was crazy! But, as a retired IT Exec, things did work out in-the-end.

EGA (640×350) came out in late 1984 and was the first reasonably decent color display on the IBM PC. Prior to that you mostly had a choice between mono text, really crappy CGA color graphics, or something proprietary like the Hercules mono graphics.

I am really curious about how anyone could afford computers at these prices in the 1980s. I guess my family was really poor then. We had a C64 and later an Amiga.

They didn't unless they were well off. Only 8% of houses had a computer in 1984. 15% by the end of the decade. C64 was $595 new, if you had one I doubt your family was poor.

It would have been closer to $200 around the time we got it!

I'm not even sure you can get a working real C64 for $200 now.

There seems to be a few C64's including breadbin and C64C models on eBay most days that I look. Granted some may need recapping or other work done, but there are plenty of others in working condition or only needing minimal repairs. I think you could get one for not much more than $US200 + plus shipping.

So funny that you could get a Raspberry Pi for like $5 that is orders of magnitude more powerful, and could even emulate a complete C64.

Everyone loved the C64 though, so fond memories are worth something.

My family was pretty poor, but my parents found a way somehow.

I'm surprised only 8%. My memory of growing up in the UK in the early 80's was that ZX81'S and ZX Spectrums were super common. I bought my ZX81 in 1982 for £50 new which looks like it was maybe $80.

One of the reasons the Spectrum was so common was the low price. And of course using taps for games meant that most weren't paid for, but copied and shared around at school.

I grew up with the ZX Spectrum, like so many others, and it is what started me programming/developing/being interested in computers.

The UK actually had the highest level of computer ownership in the world at around that point.

You're probably looking at it from a biased point of view though. When I was growing up everyone had a Snes. Of course it was just all teenage boys that had one.

I bought a TS1000 in 1981 or 82 for $99, and a C64 in probably spring 1983 for $299 at Circuit City. I was in 9th grade and used paper route money to get it (parents thought they were glorified Atari 2600's). Hehe, remember newspapers and paperboys?

Most people couldn't. And businesses which could afford them wouldn't. Which is why Lisa bombed.

But Lisa's pricing made the Mac more appealing. It wasn't exactly affordable, but you were getting maybe a third of a Lisa - including the new GUI, which was obviously the future [tm] compared to the Apple II - at less than a third of the price.

Even at the prices being charged, the Mac and PC were competitive with previous standards, and affordable enough to have a sizeable market among affluent middle class users.

They offered more than the old S-100 boxes did, for the same or less money. And they were much cheaper and more "personal" than industrial minis like the PDP-11 and the VAX.

Fun fact: Lisa sales were much better than the projections in the marketing requirements document (MRD). However, the MRD was using a much lower price ("end user price under $5000") and now the Lisa had to bring in exploding development costs. What really bombed (or flexed) was the Apple III motherboard, resulting in Apple having to reduce its line of products – and Lisa was the first to go.

Regarding the price, mind that the Lisa came with an integrated office suite (long before the success of MS Office) and was targeted at offices and professionals (think dentists). Which rendered it a somewhat curious "workstation for office work", at least from todays perspective, where eventually office machines became the epitome of cheap, bare-bones boxes.

The MRD mentions as potential users secretaries, managers, and executives (of Furtune 1500 businesses) as well as bookkeepers in general.

[1] https://archive.org/details/Apple_Lisa_MRD_Marketing_Require...

As others have noted, individuals mostly didn't own PC clones or Macs in the early 80s and they weren't even all that common in businesses.

I did buy a dual floppy PC clone in about 1983. I don't remember how much it was--wish I still had my receipts from that far back--but it was a big purchase for me at the time. [ADDED: I probably dithered over it for something like a year, during which time it became obvious that PC clones were the future rather than the S100 etc. systems running CP/M.] Based on ads from the time, it was probably about $2500 but a printer and software would have added to that.

And when I went to business school about a year later, I was one of very few people in my class who had their own computer. (There was a small computer lab in the school--that actually had a Lisa among other things as I recall. At some point when I was there they added a bigger lab with a bunch of IBM AT clones (80286s)).

If your family had a personal computer at all you were very well off indeed.

My Dad bought a 386 with a whopping 40mb Hard disk in 1991 I remember him mentioning it cost a small fortune and he could have purchased a car for the same price he paid.

I remember one of my friends had a Tandy the 386 ran rings around it (it supported vga graphics for one - I can remember playing the original Civilization game and Prince of Persia on the 386).

My dad paid $6k+ for a IIci in 89. I had no idea at 9 years old and really no appreciation for what kind of money that was. In 2000 I bought a Power Mac G4 for around $2k. Being young with lots of disposable income, I didn't appreciate then either what kind of money that was. It's only recently that I've started to understand what a computer costs as I've bought computers while paying living expenses.

In 2000, you were 30 years old. That's hardly young :)

30 is still pretty young, but your math is off.

I was 20, actually :)

In about the same year, my dad brought home a Macintosh SE for the family. I was very young and remember only a few things: it ran the game Dark Castle in b&w from a hard drive, and my father had pulled the entire system out of a dumpster at work(!). The machine had been used in some way on a defense or NRO contract, and when the project was cancelled, the entire thing was simply discarded. If I recall, one of the back corners of the case was slightly dented from its unceremonious toss into the dumpster.

As a kid I took it all for granted, but we never would have been able to afford such hardware on my dad's engineering salary at the time. The price for a new one adjusted for inflation today is jaw dropping.

Bargain for whom?

According to the article Lisa was a $50 million gamble.

I just read somewhere about the 2000 engineers Google took on for the Pixel phone from HTC. Keeping the lights on for the buildings they are in is a $50 million gamble, that's without paying them or allowing for inflation. But you get the idea, $50 million was cheap for the product compared to what hardware tech costs to develop today, particularly if it has an operating system to write from the ground up.

Incidentally, the threat from IBM mentioned in the article. Peanuts turned out to be the ill-fated PCjr that had good graphics and a bad price point for the home market. Popcorn turned out to be the first PC based lug-gable computer from IBM.

Keep in mind that $50M then is about $130M now, adjusted for inflation.

>the threat from IBM mentioned in the article. Peanuts turned out to be the ill-fated PCjr that had good graphics and a bad price point for the home market.

And a really lousy "chiclet" keyboard. I don't remember all the details of the PCjr flop but, as I recall, it was still quite a bit of money for a system that had a whole big bunch of compromises.

In addition to inflation (which other commenters have already mentioned), don't forget to take into account the relative sizes of 1983 Apple vs today's Google.

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