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Comment by Tiktaalik | Hacker News Reader

Not mentioned in this article but worth noting that the City of Vancouver was interested in pursuing a single use plastics ban taking effect this summer in 2019, but backed away when disability rights activists protested that plastic straws are very important for people with mobility challenges, and they considered the non-plastic alternative straws available to be poor and not viable options.

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I don't know if this is insensitive of me to ask, but why don't they bring their own straws? I'm sure they would be happier with a premium reusable straw than a cheap single-use one anyway. A good straw could be reusable, sturdy, and even telescopic.

Is there difficulties involved in bringing along accessibility tools like straws that I'm missing? Or is this just a case of the nirvana fallacy?

A few immediate logistical difficulties, from an able-bodied person:

1) If you have a cognitive disability, remembering to bring a straw may be difficult.

2) If you have a mobility disability, you may struggle to wash the straw in a suitably disinfected manner after use.

3) How do you reuse the straw on the go?

4) This(bringing your own straw) is another cost added onto an already economically overburdened populace.

Restaurants already have requirements around those with special needs (including those with babies), requiring them to have a few washable stainless steel straws on hand is not much to ask. Granted, there may be slip-ups, those should be reported.

The problem is that some of the people with limited mobility also have limited ability not to chew on the straw (they can't control their jaws well enough). You chew on a plastic straw, that is not an issue. You bit down on steel...

Those people btw are the ones who most need them, because they typically also have too limited mobility to drink from a cup.

That makes sense. I'm not going to say it should be dismissed due to its relative low incidence, but there has to be a better solution than a straw free for all everywhere.

Well the solution is actually simple, just charge a deposit, then they will be reused.

What's wrong with carrying your own stainless steel straw? I mean if you know you need one it makes sense to me to have your own.

Not being snarky, just curious.

It's tough because sometimes these things can feel like a "tax", i.e. the general public does not need this item so they don't purchase it, but I now have to since there are no longer any alternatives. Seems like perhaps an inconsequential amount for a straw, but it's just another cost most people don't need to consider and shoulder (mobility tools like wheelchairs, maybe specific medicines, etc.). It all adds up.

If cost is an issue, they should be provided by the health care system for those that need them.

But from the other answers it looks like it's more of a problem that they're stainless per se (hard material, need to be washed and carried).

I don't know, but I know from articles in the local paper that the existing alternatives weren't considered ideal.

I'd venture that if your dexterity is poor enough that you require a straw to drink instead of being able to drink strawless, a lot of the other tasks associated with carrying around one's own metal straw (ie. taking it out of a bag, putting it in a drink, washing it after) may also be overly challenging.

* Many disabled people cannot wash their own straws, due to both cognitive load and lack of manual dexterity.

* Stainless steel causes sensory issues for autistic people and can destroy your teeth if you accidentally bite into one. (edit: and lets also add that they conduct heat, so putting a metal straw in hot coffee and drinking out of it could seriously burn your lips)

Makes sense, thanks for the info.

It'll stab you in the throat.

A real concern for children, and undoubtedly also for some disabled folk: https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2016/starbucks-to-recall-stainl...

Just use biodegradable plastic straws.

IKEA sells in Germany straws from paper. Kids love them. Very light.

...and they'll also get soggy and dissolve in your drinks.

I actually have a 3D printed PLA straw (nominally compostable) that I reuse (single layer so it can be cleaned/dried). Weird, not super feasible for most people, but I needed a straw and didn't have one.

I tried paper straws a couple of times at A&W and it wasn't that bad. Granted, it was a cold drink, which could perhaps be problematic with hot drinks, but beside a texture difference, I found the paper straw to be an acceptable replacement.

They were probably coated with wax, which make them... non-recyclable.

Sure, they will be dirty with whatever you drink too. But they are bio-degradable, compared to plastic.

Wax-coated paper is probably far safer to dispose by burning than plastic.

I'm pretty sure platic straws are not being recycled. Paper straws are at least more sustainable.

They just need more wax then. Cups made from paper work perfectly well; so should straws.

The cups are typically coated in plastic, last time I checked. (This is not obvious from looking at them though).

I can't say I'm a cup expert, but I'm quite sure that paper cups (or straws) can be made waterproof if impregnated with wax.

You don't need to make them waterproof. How long do you plan to drink a soda or whatever else?

My kids are done in max 10mins and they look mostly untouched.

I left it for one hour in a hot cocoa though, and it was not intact anymore but still usable to a degree.

Let's say somebody gets served their beverage when they sit down, then neglect it until after they're doing eating. In a cold beverage, I'd want a straw to last at least an hour. I don't think that should be hard to accomplish either.

Biodegradable plastic has its own issues as well. Nearly all of them are food-based and will set off one food allergy or another, plus you may also have issues with straws dissolving in hot liquids.

Someone elsewhere in the thread mentioned straws made of lobster shells. In addition to shellfish allergies, such a straw isn't going to be suitable for anyone who's vegan, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't kosher either (TBH, I'm Jewish, but I don't keep kosher, and I don't know enough about the laws of kashrut to say whether or not drinking out of a lobster-shell straw is equivalent to eating lobster).

Hard to drink hot liquids with a straw anyway (stirrers are another story).

The plastics I'm think of are PLA and PHA. Mainly made of corn, but you could synthesize them from pure chemicals as well. Far more common than these "lobster shell" ones.

Honestly, even in cold liquids, I'd be worried about non-plastic straws getting soggy and/or melting if left long enough.

I haven't specifically looked into PLA and PHA much, but a quick google sees PLA being referred to as "too good to be true" and having "misleading biodegradability". I'm not seeing such concerns about PHA, but I've also only spent like a minute looking it up, and I wouldn't be surprised if some more intensive searching turns up some serious drawbacks. I have turned up some concerns about bioplastic production competing with food for the same agricultural resources, though.

PLA really needs an industrial composter to break down fully, but this is still better than traditional plastics. It's just polymerized lactic acid, which is common and naturally occuring in the human body.

PHA generally breaks down faster in the natural environment (i.e. it's biodegradable, not just compostable) and it has similar properties to PLA.

Straws use an absolutely minimal amount of material. I really don't think concern over agricultural resources is valid for such uses as it is compared to, say, the massive amounts used for biofuels. And of course, it's not as if metals have no resource requirements, either.

A typical straw weighs about .42 grams and thus uses about as much agricultural material as two kernels of corn (about as many calories as two tic tacs). That's not the problem, here. To put that in perspective, the energy in that straw (about 0.005 kilowatt-hours) is less than we just wasted arguing about it online.

I think making some waste opt-in would go a long way. Some stingy restaurant owners are doing that any way.

The UK is planning to ban plastic straws except those sold through pharmacies. That seems like the right balance, they're available to those that need them, but denormalises them for standard usage, and incentivises retailers to stock alternatives.

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