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Comment by joelrunyon | Hacker News Reader

> Some doctors who opposed the bans say the term was developed as political tactic to win support for the bills.

Isn't this what all political bills are though? Often the fight over this stuff is over language? I mean we still have the Patriot act - no one feels the need to redefine how we talk about that one?

Also, considering this:

> “What’s interpreted as a heartbeat in these bills is actually electrically induced flickering of a portion of fetal tissue that will become the heart as the embryo develops.”

Isn't a heartbeat in general to be considered an "electrically induced flickering" of sorts?

Seems weird for the newspapers to not at least call the bills what the legislators are calling it and then explain why in long-form why they're wrong.

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> Isn't a heartbeat in general to be considered an "electrically induced flickering" of sorts?

My reading is that the argument is not that a heartbeat isn't "electrically induced flickering" but that the thing flickering should not yet be classified as a heart, and so it's disingenuous to call it a heartbeat.

> Isn't a heartbeat in general to be considered an "electrically induced flickering" of sorts?

I don’t think the criticism is on the “electrically induced flickering” part of the statement. The entire embryo at that stage is about the size of a kidney bean.

There’s no heart to speak of, and probably no audible beat. (Doctors, correct me here)

> Isn't a heartbeat in general to be considered an "electrically induced flickering" of sorts?

A heartbeat is an "electrically induced flickering", yes. Neon lights are also "electrically induced flickering", but I wouldn't call that a heartbeat.

> Isn't a heartbeat in general to be considered an "electrically induced flickering" of sorts?

You need a heart to get heartbeat.

This is already a slippery slope argumentation.

Is gutted fish without a head alive just because its muscles are spasming?

> Is gutted fish without a head alive just because its muscles are spasming?

The difference being that a gutted fish will not eventually turn into an alive fish. But the "electrically induced flickering" detected in a mother's womb will, in fact, turn into a heart, inside a "blob of cells" that will, in fact, turn into a human.

no, it might and that is a big difference. Because it doesn't have to develop into heart.

What about case where twins are developing and one cannibalizes the other? Is that a murder now?

8th week is so early the risk of loosing the embryo naturally is still very high. I know more than one couple that lost embryos at that stage - my mother in fact, multiple times. So that blob of cells is very much still in the “might turn into a human” state.

My mother-in-law had this happen several times as well. But "might not turn into a human" is, in my opinion (and my mother-in-law's), insufficient reason to allow abortions for any reason, up to (and in some cases, after) the moment of birth.

You might turn out to be a murderer; you wouldn't appreciate it if we preemptively threw you in jail.

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