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Comment by tlear | Hacker News Reader

To me this was the most fascinating bit: “ Historically the Mosuo lived in a feudal system where a larger peasant population was controlled by a small nobility. The nobility was afraid of the peasant class gaining power. Since leadership was hereditary, the peasant class was given a matriarchal system. This prevented threats to nobility power by having the peasant class trace lineage through the female line. This system has led to numerous distinct traits among Mosuo society.“

But there is no reference.. if true this is some clever social engineering by the nobility!

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It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring (at least in theory) hence priests cannot form dynasties and the advantages (for trust and cooperation) of shared descent don't apply, thus priests and hence the Catholic church were less of a threat to existing nobility than other organisations that can form dynasties based on descent. (Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.)

I have no opinion on the truth or otherwise of this theory, but find it fascinating.

I thought that a lot of sons of wealthy families went into priesthood so by keeping them celibate the church would then get their inheritance. That’s how I heard it.

True, but that also means filling the ranks of the Church with people coming from wealthy, powerful families. You can imagine the effect that has on the relationship between temporal and spiritual powers.

I'm not sure of your claim that the Catholic Church is the oldest existing organization as that is a pretty broad term. For instance this Church is older, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church_of_Jerus...

I believe the Catholic Church is the oldest corporation (they were the first non-human entity recognized by law as having similar rights and responsibilities as an individual).

Diarmaid McCulloch's book "Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years" discusses this at some length. My recollection from the book is that celibacy was not a driver of the rise of the Catholic Church (which was already well established) but it was a reason for the Church to establish celibacy as a rule for priests. That is, the celibacy rules (which did not exist in the early church) were instilled to prevent the accumulation of dynastic wealth (and power) by clergy. Control of the accumulated wealth remained with the Church. Monasteries, however, were a way around this, as monasteries could accumulate substantial wealth as institutions despite the celibacy of their members.

Just my recollection from having read the book - don't guarantee it is 100% as the book presented...

>Note that the Catholic Church is the oldest still existing organisation, and was at some point in history arguably the most powerful organisation in the world.

The book "The Shoes of the Fisherman" by Morris West is a good fiction novel, sort of related to your comment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_West

Excerpt:

[ In an unforseeable literary coup, the book was published on 3 June 1963, the very day on which Pope John XXIII died.[2] The book reached No. 1 on The New York Times Best Seller List for adult fiction on 30 June 1963, and became the No. 1 best-selling novel in the United States for that year, according to Publishers Weekly. ]

The 1968 film version starring Anthony Quinn is excellent as well.

Didn't know about it, thank you. Will check it out if I can. IIRC, Quinn is the same actor who plays the Greek, Andrea, in the movie The Guns of Navarone, based on the book of the same name by Alistair MacLean.

I just googled about Quinn, and it seems he has played a role in some other famous movies too, including Zorba the Greek, Lawrence of Arabia and Lust for Life:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Quinn

His performance in the scene after the final failed vote during the papal conclave is one of my favorite film performances ever.

He also played the title role in Barabbas.

Ha ha, nice. I also have a few personal favorite scenes like that. If I think of some soon, will post them here. Thanks for those tips.

Here is one:

The scene between (actors) Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise in which Tom tells Jack "I'm not your son, and you're under arrest, you $#%#%@^!" is a good one. I forget the name of the film though.

Another one is the scene in the movie Julius Caesar (maybe based on some classical novel about him, possibly by Shakespeare?), which occurs just before his death. Powerful performances by both the actor playing Caesar and other Roman officials of the time.

It has been argued that the raise of the Catholic Church to power had a similar reason: catholic priests don't have offspring

The opposite occurred with the Roman Legions. The Legions started out as a voluntary honor carried out by citizens -- no place for the family in that situation. Then being a Legionnaire became a career, and after awhile the rules changed so they could have families live with them. At that point, the "military industrial complex" was permanently cemented in place for that society.

Sparta had a similar effect, where (citizen) women inherited all of their husband's (doomed, as he will go to war) property, and an equal part of their immediate family's estate, and so owned the vast majority of the land and pulled the state around by the nose; even as they went out with a whimper.

(apologies if misremembering Xenophon)

not specific to Mosuo, but matriarchal lineage was not 'replaced' by patriarchal in any simple way .. men hunted then men fought wars, and the winner of the wars declared themselves to be rulers, while "peaceful" people stuck with the old ways centered on fertility .. this happened in different parts of the world with very different peoples, over centuries

'Old ways centered on fertility' is unscientific feminist babble pioneered by Marija Gimbutas. It has been thoroughly debunked.

We were always violent. It's just that before agriculture the scope and the resources for violence were limited, so the amount of violence fell into equilibrium, mostly by hunter-gatherer groups establishing clear borders between them.

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