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Comment by TheGrumpyBrit | Hacker News Reader

It looks good, and I like your pricing model more than the Standard Notes one (I don't want to drop $149 at once on a web app, but the 75% discount for doing so makes the monthly price seem way too expensive). Two things that stop me pulling the trigger:

1. I need a web app. I want to be able to call up my notes from a computer, anywhere, without installing anything.

2. A 60 day trial seems like the wrong way to test a note taking app - it makes me feel like you're going to hold my data hostage unless I migrate away within that timescale. A much smaller (5-10MB) quota with no time limit would allow me to test it properly, and it's already a part of my workflow by the time I hit the limitations of the free account, so I'm more likely to actually upgrade.

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The author here.

> A much smaller (5-10MB) quota with no time limit

That's interesting and I basically agree with your opinion. You will be more comfortable to try it. But I suspect that many free riders will come eat the server resources. This is not a startup. I would rather like to be small.

Another point is that 10mb is a lot of text, especially for users like me who use these types of note-taking apps as todo lists. For persistent notes I already have directory I store locally w/ cloud backup, but a webapp would be nice for my running todo list.

That will hopefully never top 10mb,so a free user like me would really eat into hosting costs. Perhaps a solution to people like the OP who are concerned about data being held hostage is to make it clear that after the trial period their data can be exported, that way they don't have to feel there is risk of it being held hostage.

In my note taking "system" (vim on a text file inside a GNU screen session) for work, I think I've only hit 1MB total for the last 10 years.

If the OP is going to do a time-unlimited demo, it should be really small, like 5K or less. The point is the same: try it out for a little while, and see if it works for you.

Or maybe limit the number of notes that can be taken to 10 or 20.

Usage-based limits... "1000 edits..." similar to 'moom' I think which allows like 100 window resizes before it makes you pay.

Exactly - this works for notion.so, who allow 1000 "blocks" of data before requiring a paid account.

On the other hand 10mb is not a lot of images. If I'm using a paid mobile app for note-taking, I probably want to be able to quickly snap a photo and maybe write a few bullet points or sentences.

According to https://inkdrop.app/pricing the free plan includes 1 GB storage, and the basic plan ($5/mo) includes 10 GB storage.

I agree with sibling comments that a limit based on number of notes would be preferable to losing access after a specified time. Maybe adjust the free tier storage allocation down, or limit the number of images/attachments.

> A much smaller (5-10MB) quota with no time limit

Eeesh. Be careful taking advice from someone who has no intention of paying now. You're doing a great job Takuya, keep on trucking.

Thanks!

I think so too! Keep up

> Be careful taking advice from someone who has no intention of paying now.

This applies to so many situations, could be a great advice for many product creators! Saving this one

I also sell my own software and I would pass along the following feedback:

1. Take breaks every now and then 2. People complaining about your software is good: that means they want to use it but something is preventing them from doing so. 3. Finally, don't do anything for free.

Good luck :)

The author here. Thanks for the advice. Yeah, getting many complaints means that you are solving the right problem.

enjoy reading your blog.inkdrop.info. i think $5 a month is a right choice. wondering your primary customers are from japan or from non-japan users ?

> free riders will come eat the server resources

that's not the way to address a user whether paid or "free rider" as you call them.

is there a more appropriate verbiage the author should be using?

Why don't he use the same verbiage in his pricing page and do an A/B test ? The results will prove if his verbiage is appropriate.

Actually, "free riders" is an excellent thinking model, and the likely most useful way to analyze it.

He needs to create a sustainable app/service, and does not have a lot of external VC resources to burn while doing so. Thus, it must be sustainable in real time.

Server loads are apparently one of his biggest expenses, so he must optimize to minimize those resources.

OTOH, allowing people to take substantial 'free rides' to test the product in their situation is an excellent way to get new paying users, and often an essential gateway to conversion. I'll hardly sign up for anything without a real test drive.

So, letting potential customers get some 'free riding' is good, but too much will sink the ship.

It looks like he has a limited time 60-day demo and also a no server unlimited time demo. Both seem like good ways to limit the resources given away for free, while providing enough 'free rides' to entice them to pay for the journey.

I'm already heading over check it out after just browsing the main page & comments.

Now, if you are trying to say that mentioning the "free rider" term in public is somehow insulting to the potential users. I don't think so. He's not calling them "freeloaders" which has a more derogatory connotation. the "free rider" term carries a connotation a little bit like I've won a free ride, but it isn't a permanet free pass. I wouldn't find "hey, you get a free ride for two months" at all insulting.

What do you think his user conversion will be if he uses "Free rider who eats resources" verbiage in his pricing page as opposed to "free"

HaHa! The "eats resources" would not be the most friendly approach . . . although framed in the right context, the A/B test might come out different than we expect!

Overall I agree, if all you are saying is that the "free rider who eats resources" phrasing isn't the most customer friendly possible usage, all other things being equal

All I was saying is if he calls trial users "free riders eating resources" on a tech site which we all understand the verbiage and where this comes from.

How will he treat paying customers ? I smell double standards. That's all I am saying.

The language, to me, seemed very precise and inoffensive. "Free rider" isn't a word that he just made up.

"In the social sciences, the free-rider problem is a type of market failure that occurs when those who benefit from resources, public goods, or services of a communal nature do not pay for them.[1] Free riders are a problem because while not paying for the good, they may continue to access it. Thus, the good may be under-produced, overused or degraded"[0]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-rider_problem

This is a startup forum, dude. He’s talking more to fellow creators than users. We prefer this.

It sounds right from a tech speak. But the question remains if he will treat the paid customers with this same attitude.

So to summarize

1. You don't have anything better as a term

2. It's a valid and well understood term on the board you're on

3. It's a legitimate problem for those with finite resources

That leads to the conclusion that you probably don't pay for things often which is why you got your feelings hurt. There is literally no way that term should be offensive to you unless you abusively take advantage of services and then some then when it comes time to pay.

An internet summarizes and makes a well informed conclusion :-

Which is, I probably don't pay for things and felt hurt when I saw "yet another paid note taking app" amongst dozen others on the internet.

None of your comments have been relevant to the app. Your comments been complaints about specific verbiage used to describe a particular problem, common to startups, that the dev wished to avoid. We'd love to hear your points on what the app could use, however you've done nothing but insinuate that the developer doesn't appreciate his users because a particular word choice caught you wrong. I can see no other reason someone would take offense to a word choice unless they were personally offended. Please feel free to enlighten us by refuting any point of my comment. Your reply realistically doesn't do anything to respond to my summary.

It is relevant. To answer your question, the app could use a developer with more humility towards users.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I am so excited by this. I have always kept my developer log in vim, and I basically run my life from it, but I've always wanted inline preview, a system wide hotkey, and cross platform file sync that doesn't require giving my unencrypted data to a cloud provider. I have found a lot of markdown apps with preview and sync, but none of them support vim bindings, which is a deal breaker. I looked for so long that I decided I would have to build it myself, and then I see this! You have a new customer. :)

Edit: before anyone chimes in, yes I know you can use quake-style terminals, and rsync, and any number of vim plugins, but I need it to work seamlessly on all three desktop platforms.

Edit 2: and it has mobile support too! This literally checks every box I had in my feature list.

If youre a tinkerer it's always possible to just use plain vim and a repository. Of you want that repo end to end encrypted, keybase could be an option.

You'd lose out on mobile though and this project looks pretty neat if you're willing to pay

That's what I've been doing, but it's a pain in the butt to commit and push every time I make an edit.

Certainly this model would result in a lot more people who would create accounts to test and never come back after deciding it's not for them. The answer to that is a clear dormant account policy - for example by deleting free accounts after 60 days with no login. That helps make sure that all your trial users are actively engaged in using the service, and also gives you an opportunity to follow up with dormant users at defined points to remind them that their account will expire if left unused, and giving the opportunity to upgrade to a paid account which has no such limit.

Another person mentioned that 5MB is a lot for text notes, which is quite true - following the notion.so approach and having a limit of 100 notes or so might be more sensible. I personally just don't like the idea of a time limit on a note taking app, especially when all the other options provide a free quota instead.

That said, your pricing looks just right for me, and the lack of the web app is the main thing stopping me from giving it a try. I really like the fact that you have both folders and tags, instead of just one or the other - that's really the one thing I feel is missing from both Standard Notes and Notion

I wouldn't be following their advice, I think the time limit is great and you should stick to it. 5-10MB of note data could be a lot, meaning you'd end up with users you've replied to that will never pay.

I wouldn't be listening to any feedback from someone who isn't going to buying your product anyway!

OP they replied to: it's the dev's choice to figure out the way to ship a trial of their 3 years of hard work. If you don't like that you're more than welcome to ship your own demo of your own application.

> I want to be able to call up my notes from a computer, anywhere, without installing anything.

Why? How often do you retrieve your notes from some random computer that doesn't have your other preferred (or required) software installed?

For me, all the time.

I can't install software at work, so a web app would be the only to access my stuff during the work day. I also have a shared computer in my living room that I don't install personal apps or log into personal accounts on. Web apps let me quickly access something there when I need to and log out easily.

The author here.

You are right. I basically build my apps for myself who always use the same computers. I understand there are various people with various needs - but I would like to focus on pleasing people who are similar to me. I believe this is important to provide a good service. I don't feel like making apps like Microsoft Office with tons of features to please everyone.

The platform you develop on isn't a feature. It's a platform - and without a doubt, a web app is the most ubiquitous kind of app that can serve anyone on practically any internet-connected device.

Internet-connected is the key term here, though. If your target audience are internet-less note takers, then a desktop app is the correct choice.

If you don’t log into personal accounts on it what difference would it make if there was a web app version of this notes thing? You wouldn’t log into it anyway.

Presumably, they mean log into personal desktop accounts (as in "at a login prompt" or "what would change the output of `whoami`") rather than into a personal account on a website within a browser session.

To chime in, I like standard notes a lot and I found their pricing was reasonable enough

$10/month is at the high end of what I'd consider paying for a note app - that's more than Microsoft Office. $2.50 is a bargain, but I don't want to pay for 5 years at once (although I can certainly understand the reasoning behind that model). $4-5 (OP's app or notion.so) is right on the money for what I'd expect to pay for this kind of tool.

I agree with your suggestion, but 5 megabytes is a _LOT_ of text. I would suggest capping the trial version at something like 20 notes, which is more than enough to test it out but not enough to really use the service longterm.

Actually there is a demo version which allows you to make 5 notes without time limit and sync feature.

https://my.inkdrop.app/demo

I too need a web client - what do you currently use?

Nope, at least for now. Because I won't use a web client. Features that I don't use always be buggy. This is what I've learned through my solo dev.

Currently either Standard Notes or a self hosted instance of VS Code on my home server.

So you are likely to PAY to GIVE your data AWAY...

Mamma mia!

Why not pay US $5 to Digital Ocean and run your own NextCloud and you have all the notes in your own server. Encrypted.

And now you pay to give that data to Digital Ocean.

There is difference with free software and proprietary software. NextCloud instance is free software and holds encrypted information. Maybe there could be ways to intercept password by the ISP.

This application is proprietary software, and you don't know nothing what is going on in background. Just as majority of Service as a Software Substitute, or SaaSS steal people's data.

See: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...

There are torrents with information to download with all details of many major websites. It means NO SECURITY.

So if I a stranger from street asks you to give him your notes, you won't give him. But you see him face to face.

If a faceless guy online, which you don't know where is he located, asks you to give him all your notes, you even pay to him to give him.

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