Tokyo mechanical keyboard meetup photos | Hacker News Reader

Tokyo mechanical keyboard meetup photos

romly.com

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Hello I'm Romly. Sorry for the down. I used boost function on my hosting service so I think the server holds for a while... I hope.

By the way I'm making a keyboard by SLA printer which named as #Thumbxy! (Typing with it right now) https://twitter.com/search?q=%23thumbxy&src=typed_query&f=li...

And also making "Keycappie"s, fairies of keyboards! https://drop.com/buy/romly-keycappie-novelty-keycaps

Anyway enjoy the photos of unique keyboards!

Thank you for sharing your work and the pictures, I love what you do (especially the Keycappies, if you know where I can get a huge switch for a Keycappie God, please let me know :))

Thank you! You can buy them at Romly Shop in Shapeways! https://www.shapeways.com/shops/romly

I wonder why the small spacebar never caught on in the mainstream. I know that the goal of a large spacebar is to be able to hit it no matter where your hand is on the main part of the keyboard, but it seems like you could cram in a couple more easily-accessible modifier keys if spacebars where just a little shorter.

I wish there were more modifiers. One for navigation, one for wm control, one for app control, one for input manipulation...

Me too - I like the idea of super and hyper from those lisp machines in the 70s ...

There is some hope. Some programs (emacs at least) let you map the additional windows and apple keys in meaningful ways ...

Check out QMK, and any of the many many keyboards that support it. Every single aspect of the keyboard is programmable, down to the LED animations (it also supports super and hyper). Welcome to your new and expensive hobby. :)

to further clarify the power of qmk: you literally program (parts of the) firmware in c. so you can put modifiers everywhere you want, make layers until you are going crazy, make keys behave differently on press/hold, absolutely everything. and it's firmware you flash, so no matter where you plug it in, it' all there.

qmk is just awesome, check it out https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/

For the those new to the hobby and terminology, a layer is when you hold/lock one key (or a combination of keys) and then all of the other keys do something different than they did before.

The keyboard you're using right now probably has a second layer that is activated when you hold SHIFT. When you hold SHIFT, the letter keys will now be capitalized and the numbers will produce symbols.

Many programmable keyboards allow you to have more than two layers. For example, I remapped caps lock to activate a third layer, so now my home row and the nearby keys, can act like my arrow keys and common editing keys like home, end, delete, etc. I also mapped media keys to that layer, so "m" is mute and < > are prev/next song. Now I can do pretty much everything without my fingers leaving the home row. This is great for speed and fluidity as a programmer. I can also use a much smaller keyboard for better ergonomics and a more minimalist look.

I actually got into mechs for the ergonomics... I was having fatigue in my right (mouse hand) shoulder. Once I moved to a smaller keyboard (tenkeyless) and my shoulder wasn't turned as far out to use the mouse, my shoulder healed within a couple weeks.

Now I'm on a 60% keyboard. It took about two months to fully get used to my third layer, but I feel it was well worth it for the improved speed and flow.

For those who don't want / need to write it in C directly there's also a handy configurator[1].

1: https://config.qmk.fm/#/1upkeyboards/1up60hse/LAYOUT_60_ansi

> I wish there were more modifiers.

They exist. They just need to be utilized.

> One for navigation,

Control-Key

> one for wm control

Super/Windows-Key, sometimes also called hyper, but not really.

> one for app control

Alt-Key

> one for input manipulation.

Shift & Iso3-Key.

The best thing to do with a split spacebar is to put things like shift there so you never have to reach again.

That's why a lot of ergonomic designs have thumb clusters to better make use of an underutilized finger.

I didn't really think about it until now, but a shift key in the middle of the keyboard would be fantastic idea. It doesn't really make sense to have two separate keys when one could fulfil the same purpose. I only hit the space key on the right side of the bar with my right thumb anyway, so having something for my left thumb to do would be ideal, while also freeing up 2 keys for other common functions.

Honestly just having access to a few extra layers and modifiers on the thumbs can greatly reduce the size of a board and improve ergonomics. I can't use boards without thumb clusters anymore! Once you have access to those layers/mods the amount of finger-extension and wrist shifting while typing is extremely reduced. I took this to a logical extreme with Georgi [1], which is surprisingly usable for programming work despite it's size!

I would love to see more boards adopt a chorded [2] approach. I spent a bit too much time with the steno crowd and some of their ideas rubbed off. Even applied to a traditional keyboard simple chords can reduce motion and improve speed. On average I don't have to move more then half a key on Georgi and my wrists thank me for it :)

[1] https://www.gboards.ca/

[2] http://docs.gboards.ca/

I use a Mitosis which has even fewer alpha keys and even more thumb keys: 3x5 alphas and 2x4 thumb.

A Mitosis is on my "to build" list. It's wireless design has been influential for a microcosm of wireless split designs, so my collection definitley needs it.

Just as a warning: my wireless Mitosis dropped keystrokes, and I never actually preferred the split, but I liked the layout so much that I eventually made a hand-wired, hard-wired, non-split version.

https://i.imgur.com/q4umLuL.jpg

I remember upvoting that when it was posted... did it go on r/mechanicalkeyboards or r/olkb? I don't recall which one.

Looks like a great board to type on. The Atreus I made in 2016 had clicky Gateron Green switches, and it was great to type on. That was before Box Navies even existed. If they were around back then, I probably would have chosen them. :)

I've been using an ergo infinity for a few years but this is the first time I've seen a "gergo". I just bought one! I like that it gets rid of all the keys I don't use on the ergo. Namely, the num layer and the far reaching thumb cluster keys. Everything else is on a layer anyway.

I use the program "xcape" [1] to map CapsLock to Esc when no other button is pressed and Ctrl when it is pressed together with another button.

Similarly you could remap the Spacebar to e.g. R_Shift with Xmodmap and let xcape emit a Space when R_Shift (which is now the Space bar) is pressed in isolation.

[1]: https://github.com/alols/xcape

>I didn't really think about it until now, but a shift key in the middle of the keyboard would be fantastic idea. It doesn't really make sense to have two separate keys when one could fulfil the same purpose.

The 42-key Atreus keyboard achieved this for Shift, Control, and Alt. I recommend it as a fantastic ergonomic keyboard for people who enjoy minimalism.

I have a TECK 207 (or 227) that comes with a split spacebar. The firmware it's not super configurable (I would love to put a TMK/QMK firmware) but it has at least a way to create a second layer, so with the left space I have the "inverse T" IJKL cursor keys on "homerow", PgUp/PgDown, Home, End.

I use a Japanese keyboard and I remap the "無変換" key (normal sized key just to the left of the space) as tab. Then I remap the real Tab key to be Esc and the Caps Lock to be Ctl. It's very handy for using vim keybindings :-)

I used a Japanese keyboard for a while at work, and eventually caved and brought in my own american-style keyboard. I simply could not get used to the tiny space bar, and my typing was suffering.

Looks like the site got Slashdotted, here's a cached version from the Wayback machine:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190606134704/romly.com/archive...

(Protip: you can append !wayback to a url if you use DuckDuckGo as your search engine to pull up a cache automatically)

or simply here's the flickr album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/164140344@N07/sets/72157708768...

Here are links to the videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhwa9xxTm-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrbWjevbao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_oa3z1UHs

That Thinkpad keyboard is awesome and a great idea! Does anyone know a site that shows you how to do it? Or is that flat ribbon cable to USB board in the picture custom?

E: Found this Hackaday article [1] and one of the comments linked to the keyboard shown in the picture [2]!

[1] https://hackaday.com/2018/12/04/teensy-liberates-the-thinkpa...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nqvHDSDzKk

Which led me to find this knockoff

https://www.amazon.com/SK-8845CR-Keyboard-TrackPoint-Thinkpa...

I'm so tempted to build one of these. I love my X61/62 keyboard and would love one for work. I can totally print the bottom half for the keyboard with my 3D printer. The hardest part is finding the interface board.

Lenovo sells them as regular USB keyboards: https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-ThinkPad-Compact-Keyboard-Trac...

I think I need to buy one of these soon. My mechanical keyboard (an original Monoprice with Cherry MX Blue's) is starting to wear out, and I've been contemplating its replacement. I love my T420's keyboard (typing on it now) and "get" the pointer, so this seems very logical. Not sure if it's a "10hr a day" keyboard or not, tough.

Thoughts from any hard core thinkpad users?

While Lenovo still sells the wired version[1] (ThinkPad Wired USB Keyboard with TrackPoint), they regrettably stopped selling the bluetooth version a while back. Hopefully it's clearing stock for a refresh, but...

[1] https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboa...

I'm glad I've become dependent on the ergonomics of my Kinesis Advantage keyboards because I fear I'd own way too many mechanical keyboards otherwise...

Same with the Freestyle Edge here, but I'm thinking of giving a chance to the Ergo-shaped ones...

I've got a freestyle edge and an ergodox and they're both nice. The freestyle has a great option for tenting and a palm rest (had to 3d print one for the ergodox) and takes practically no adjustment. The ortholinear keys and thumb clusters are great on the ergodox, but it takes some serious customisation and practice to get used to, particularly for programming.

Have you tried any of the more modern split keyboards? I use an ErgoDox at work and it's fantastic.

I've briefly typed on someone else's ErgoDox but it's not the same. The Kinesis is not just split, the keys for each hand are in a concave bowl.

Same situation here; the ErgoDox has better key switch options but the Kinesis has better overall ergonomics. https://jakeseliger.com/2009/07/20/kinesis-advantage

You might want to check out the dactyl. https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard

You can print your own Kinesis Advantage style mechanical keyboard that's smaller and adjusted to your personal hand parameters. It uses Clojure to generate OpenSCAD file. There are also many variations.

https://github.com/tshort/dactyl-keyboard

This is pretty cool.

I wonder if there is replacement for plastic used in keyboards. Ergonomic design is cool and all, but have you tried typing on something which feels natural and eco-friendly? I personally would expect Apple to come up with such a product as they've already used other green materials in cables. But it would definitely be nice if these keyboard producers put some emphasis on environment-friendliness.

If Apple really cared about the environment they'd make their devices more maintainable to dramatically reduce waste. But their current strategy to push against right to repair and having insane repair prices shows where their real priorities lie.

But on the other hand recent product development decisions means there’s a thriving market in preloved macbook pros!

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https://web.archive.org/web/20190606104623/http://romly.com/...

Glad I could help. Archive.org doesn't cache the YT-videos, but it should be possible to look them up by their ids.

Here the the videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhwa9xxTm-Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrbWjevbao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p_oa3z1UHs

Hacker News hug o death

Wow, cool stuff.

Seeing the DIY small keyboards reminds me of the Textblade, a super enticing tiny mobile keyboard that has been stuck in preproduction for several years now. I cancelled my preorder after waiting for a year or so and they still haven't released their product.

What are the best resources for building a keyboard like this?

This long talk goes at length on how to make your own keyboards and provides several resources too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWNgy1pldtM&t=15s

Here's another great video about a procedurally generated keyboard frame

clojure.core/typing - Matt Adereth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4

Take a look at ai03s guide over here [1], it's a quick start on making a macropad and walks you through everything. Also the MechKeys discord's #kb-design is very useful for making sure you don't end up with a bunch of coasters :)

https://wiki.ai03.me/books/pcb-design/page/pcb-guide-part-1-...

just in case, let me share this wonderful blog article http://adereth.github.io/blog/2014/04/09/3d-printing-with-cl...

The reddit is great!

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/

geekhack.org has a section called 'making stuff together' which is helpful.

I wrote a blog post on how I built a custom keyboard. Lots of similar buildlogs out there:

https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/atreus-build-log/

Don't get me wrong, building them is fun, but just wanted to make sure you know you can buy them fully assembled too. For example, https://mechanicalkeyboards.com has a large selection.

For building a first keyboard, I would order a "cheap" kit that is Pok3r compatible. For example, this kit includes everything except keycaps, which you can buy from the website above (or ebay, aliexpress, and many others).

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Satan-GH60-kit-mechanical-ke...

Full assembly required of course, can be soldered in about 30 minutes if you've got some soldering experience. Also, it will come with some basic programming but you'll want to learn to program it yourself so you can really customize it.

I recommend a Pok3r compatible PCB because then you have many different case options that you can switch to in the future. Also, 60% is pretty approachable and will help you learn if it's your thing or if you want a larger (or smaller) board.

If you're in Japan, you can go to Yushakobo's store in Akihabara, or order some kits online at places like https://eucalyn.shop/product-category/kits.

Site is down, but judging by the photos on Flickr, there were some really weird and unusable (?) keyboards on display.

Are these considered art or experiments? Or do people have actual use for things like 20-key layouts?

Some people just like tiny keyboards. Moreover, keyboards are quite fun to build and typing on a keyboard you built yourself is satisfying : you have so much choice regarding components.

I think that very tiny boards are not really used by their owners (see the Gherkin board for example), but they still are a lot of fun to build. Just don't take it too seriously.

The OLKB Planck seems to be a nice tradeoff between usability and space efficiency.

I think you're right about English tiny keyboards, but Japanese ones seem more potentially useful to input kana.

Some very small layouts can in fact be used, and quite effectively. I have a co worker who types using stenography (and develops with it as well) and the absolute minimum keys he really needs is around ~25.

He also absolutely dumpsters me at typing speed, be it normal text or special character heavy code, and I type around 90wpm with an ergodox and 110wpm with traditional layout.

Ted?

I also would like to know about if there are any ergonomic health research about these keyboards. Which one is the more efficient? Or the one more healthy?

I would guess that they can be used for writing Japanese (Tokyo keyboard meetup..) via kana, and choosing conversions to kanji suggested by software, perhaps with those thumb buttons.

It's just a guess.

Appears to have gotten the hug of death.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190606104623/http://romly.com/...

The photos aren't archived, but there are at least links to a flickr account and some YouTube videos for the curious.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/164140344@N07/sets/72157708768...

Thanks for this.

Thanks for that, all of those boards are awesome. The split ortholinear boards have my HHKB feeling woefully inadequate.

I'd like to propose a new phrase. A gathering of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts should be called a 'clack'.

I've used mechanical keyboards at home for years and love them. Unfortunately, I'm stuck with a mushy OEM keyboard at work (not allowed to bring in your own stuff here). Same deal with mice (I prefer trackballs).

Are you not allowed to bring your own?

I always bring my: keyboard, mouse, monitor, chair.

I worked at a software company where you were not officially allowed to bring your own keyboard/mouse, but the unofficial policy was that they would look the other way. However they would not support you or help you install it - that was much harder than it sounds, it took me 20 minutes to route the cable.

I have to admit I'm curious as to why you prefer trackball, from my experience there is no actual benefit to it over laser, expect perhaps if you prefer heavier mouses

I think he means the type where your hand manipulates the ball, not a mouse with a ball.

This got me thinking. A modern ball mouse utilizing some kind of optical tracking on the ball could be very accurate. Of course, probably less accurate than tracking on the desk itself, but would be fun as a "retro-style" novelty.

That's how modern trackballs work. Optical mice are cheaper to produce and more reliable than those with balls, and trackballs are the same in that regard.

I do believe Microsoft and Logitech have built mice that had optical tracking of the ball but went to direct tracking of the surface because of cost, cleaning, and accuracy.

When I notice an onset of RSI I switch to a thumb operated trackball for a couple of days. Also when I produce music and haven't enough space left besides my controllers on my desk for operating a conventional mouse.

If you're having to switch to hold it off it might actually be being caused by another ergonomic problem with your space.

I kept having to change things/switch out things to hold it back until I one day adjusted my chair/armrest height to above my desk and I haven't had an issue at all in 6 years since doing that.

I use a trackball so I don’t have to move my arm or stress my wrist. I use a Logitech trackball that only requires moving my thumb.

I love my old-school TrackMan Marble Wheel. It's even better than the modern Logitech trackball.

That's the one I use. I even bought some extra since I hear the wireless isn't quite as crisp.

I use a trackball because it takes up less desk space and doesn't need a mouse pad.

I use my own peripherals at work. Multiple keyboards and mice actually.

Do you work at a nuclear plant or what?

I would switch job for that. Using ergodox with colemak layout.

Depending where you are, your employer might actually be making themselves liable for your physical health. Everyone's bodies are different; IMO it's not ethical to prevent your employees from choosing their own input devices.

I've found that "what are you going to do about it?" goes a long way with this stuff. My previous job banned vertical monitors and I'd often come back to my desk with mine turned back to landscape and a post-it note from the IT guy, and I'd just throw it away and put it back. Nothing past that ever happened. My current job has one approved text editor, EditPlus [1], and one approved config with a non-fixed-width font, which sucks. I use Atom and Sublime anyway and just have to deal with the IT guy trying to lecture me about "we don't know that a / in Atom is the same as a / in EditPlus. You can't prove that it is." anytime he walks past my desk.

I'd give anything to work somewhere without an IT staff, but in my experience as long as you get quality work done you can do it how you want.

> My previous job banned vertical monitors

Wow. I get a "don't plug random stuff into your machine's USB ports" policy, but "don't rotate your monitor"? "one approved config with a non-fixed-width font"?

I can't imagine a sane rationale for this. Do they force lefties to write with their right hand, too?

These are beautiful. Rather more boring is the Topre I bought last year. I think I've finally found the keyboard that I will never need to change. I tried both Das Keyboard and WASD and was quite disappointed.

I had a similar path. My first mech was a Das Keyboard with MX Browns, and it wasn't bad. But I switched (no pun intended) to Topre as my daily driver on advice of a friend, and I haven't looked back.

I do have a WASD with MX Reds for gaming, because my fingers were getting tired gaming on Topre.

I am looking for a DIY kit for a split ergonomic keyboard _with_ an attached num block.

Does anyone know if such a kit exists? There are a few kits for split ergonomic layouts but none of them seem to include the num block.

I wonder if at that point users aren’t just emulating a ten key with some mode switch, or just building a separate ten key?

No. But a keypad PCB is 5-10 USD and well worth it.

I need it for my daily work and I can't really map it well on my 40%.

There is not such a kit. In this day and age of hand-wired keyboards and 3D printers, though, you can probably make it.

I use an Ergodox with one one of the bottom keys set to switch modes while pressed; in that mode m,.jkluio translates to 123456789. It works fine for me.

The Ergodox has too many keys, so using some of them to switch layers is practical.

Because there is regularly no need for these. You can add num block to any part of the keyboard and switch to it with one key press(Hold or Tap) You can also get separate and programmable num block in addition if you really want it.

On my ergo I use the home row for the numbers. It's way faster because you can use 8 fingers for 10 numbers instead of 3 fingers for 10.

Of course there is no need for them but I am just used to use one and I would miss it.

I recommend going a separate numpad: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/numpads

Once you're willing to separate, the options WIDELY open up.

>hex-shaped keys

Alright, I definitely need one

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