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Comment by vikramkr | Hacker News Reader

The number of languages is stunning. Does anyone know if the number of languages is just the officially named languages or if it includes creoles? The language I speak is a creole of two languages and doesnt have a name or writing system really, and I'm curious to know how that is counted.

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>The number of languages is stunning.

True.

From the article:

>According to the Census of India of 2001, India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages. However, figures from other sources vary, primarily due to differences in definition of the terms "language" and "dialect". The 2001 Census recorded 30 languages which were spoken by more than a million native speakers and 122 which were spoken by more than 10,000 people.

When I was in high school, for instance, Hindi was one subject. Our teacher told us that there are a few major versions, like Khari Boli and Braj Bhasha and maybe Awadhi was another one (don't remember). For example, we read poetry of Tulsidas and Surdas, which were, IIRC, composed in one of the first two languages, each. Good poetry, BTW.

Tulsidas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsidas

Yes, Awadhi was one:

Awadhi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awadhi_language

Surdas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surdas

Braj Bhasa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braj_Bhasa

Khariboli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khariboli_dialect

There were creole-like languages that existed in the South, usually when Dravidian culture was mixed with Sanskrit. One famous instance is "Manipravalam", which is a blend of Tamil-Malayalam with Sanskrit. I think in Manipravalam eventually led to modern Malayalam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manipravalam

I'd consider "Mumbai Hindi" a creole. It's nominally a dialect of Hindi/Urdu but it has a lot of Marathi mixed in, among other languages.

Mumbai Hindi is not a creole by any definition of linguistics. It is actually a dialect of Hindustani with Marathi and other languages mixed in.

A Creole specifically occurs when two languages (usually unrelated) suddenly mix together, usually with a _greatly_ simplified (but consistent) grammar from the parent languages. It's not just the result of heavy borrowing.

I don't believe that's happened for Mumbai Hindi.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

I believe you are confusing a "creole" with a "pidgin".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin

> pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, its vocabulary and grammar are limited and often drawn from several languages. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups). Fundamentally, a pidgin is a simplified means of linguistic communication, as it is constructed impromptu, or by convention, between individuals or groups of people. A pidgin is not the native language of any speech community, but is instead learned as a second language

I'm not sure Mumbai Hindi would qualify as a pidgin either then since it's definitely the native language of a significant number of people.

Pidgins and Creoles are on a continuum -- once pidgin's get native speakers and a stable grammar, they're creoles. But Yeah, I didn't mention that.

Standard Hindi itself has some characteristics of a creole; at the very least it has had both grammatical and vocabulary influences from a number of languages, including Punjabi, Persian, Portuguese and English.

Come to think of it, those are all Aryan languages. Does their mixing still constitute a creole?

Only Hindi and Punjabi are Aryan. English, Persian, and Portuguese are Indo-European but not Indo-Aryan.

Not Persian? I was under the impression that Hindi is Aryan as a result of the Persian invasion of the Indian subcontinent, which also resulted in the Dravidian languages being pushed south.

The commonly accepted view right now is that there was an Aryan migration and not an invasion over the Indian subcontinent. But there are politically motivated narratives abound that are pushing this theory to either extremes (Aryan immigration theory vs Aryan == Dravidian theory). Please don't trigger a flame war. It is surprising as it is that this topic hasn't triggered one yet.

Whether one calls it an invasion or a migration (I take no side), the Dravidians headed south around that time, no?

It's not really clear. There are pockets of Dravidians outside of the 'Dravidian south', but in some cases these seem to represent later migrations.

And in Sri Lanka both Indo-Aryan (Sinhala) and Dravidian (Tamil) speakers seemed to have arrived around the same time.

There weren't really any major 'Persian' invasions of India. The closest would be the Mughal invasions (the Mughals being Persianised Turco-Mongols), which were relatively recent, in the history of India (16th century A.D.)

There are claims of earlier 'Aryan invasions' of India (nothing to do with Persians), meaning essentially an invasion of Sanskrit speakers into India, though to what degree these migrations were 'invasions' in any sense is unclear.

It is also unclear whether migrations/invasions of these Sanskrit speakers displaced Dravidian speakers. It is clear that both Sanskrit/Indo-Aryan speakers and Dravidian speakers partially displaced earlier Austro-Asiatic (Munda) speakers, who themselves seemed to have displaced yet earlier populations.

I knew or could guess about influences from the other three, but didn't really know about influences from Portuguese - interesting. Got any examples? Only one I can think of right now is kaju in Hindi for cashew, which I think may be from Portuguese because I think I've read the Portuguese brought the cashew tree to India [1]. Okay, pao or pav [2] for a particular kind of bread in Mumbai and Maharashtra may be another one. I know that bread is called pan and similar words in some European languages, and many Portuguese words end in "o" or "ao".

Just looked it up in Google Translate, pão is Portuguese for bread:

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cashew

https://translate.google.com/#view=home&op=translate&sl=auto...

[2] https://www.google.com/search?q=pao+bread+of+mumbai

Another example is "vindaloo", from "vinho d'alho" ('garlic wine').

Over in Japan, "tempura" is from a Latin reference to the holiday of Lent, as used by Portuguese people in Japan. (At that time the Catholic Portuguese would eat fried fish or fried vegetables.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempura#Etymology

(edit: it seems that the original reference is to four different seasons of religious fasts, not just to the Lenten fast)

Oh yes, good ones, thanks. I knew about both of those, but had forgotten. Knew about vindaloo from both reading [1] about it and eating it, and about tempura just from reading.

Tempura sounds like our Indian bhajji [2], but with many other fillings; must try it out some time.

I've been to Goa, which is one place the Portuguese had a colony in India, and have had vindaloo - both the authentic and non-authentic kinds. The authentic kind at Goan-run restaurants in Goa, and the unauthentic kind at non-Goan run restaurants (also in Goa). What makes it unauthentic (although not necessarily bad in taste) is that they add potato to the dish, probably based on the wrong understanding that the "aloo" part of the dish name means it should have potato in it (aloo means potato in Hindi). I've read that some "Indian" restaurants in the UK do the same too.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindaloo

From the article about Vindaloo:

>Restaurants outside Goa serve vindaloo with chicken or lamb, which is sometimes mixed with cubed potatoes. Even though the word aloo (आलू) means potato in Hindi,[5](as the name is a corruption of a Portuguese phrase with no Hindi etymology) traditional vindaloo does not include potatoes.

>Vindaloo served in restaurants of the United Kingdom differs from the original vindaloo dish; it is simply a spicier version of the standard "medium (spiciness)" restaurant curry with the addition of vinegar, potatoes and chili peppers.

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaji

Yes (re. your edit), saw that (after seeing your link). The 4 / quatre stuff.

Googled for this term - Japanese words of Portuguese origin - results are also a bit interesting, e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_words_of_...

From the top of my head as a very lay person, I can count several languages that are not only completely distinct but also completely alien to me as a Hindi speaker: Marathi, Bengali, Oriya, Assamese, Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Malyalam. These are major languages and form the basis of a lot of state boundaries.

There are quite a few dialects. I don’t have the source off hand but something like 300. Also it is fun seeing the rupee notes because they have the denomination written in each of the scripts.

The distinction between "language" and "dialect" is far from clear-cut, and often determined as much by socio-political as linguistic factors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...

What language do you speak that's a creole?

It's an odd mix of Tamil and telugu, two davidian languages, barely mutually intelligible with telugu

What language/area is it?

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