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Comment by fnord77 | Hacker News Reader

> Is shyness necessarily a bad thing?

in today's world it most definitely is a very bad thing. It's a social and economic handicap.

I would add that it's a handicap with no accessibility. Many designs are undertaken with physical handicap, disabilities and disorders in mind. Rarely is shyness accommodated in like fashion or treated as a handicap to be accepted. The prevailing sentiment is that it's a feeling that can be outgrown (eg. we often hear the phrase "don't be shy" as if it's something a person has complete control over).

It is something that you have control over though. Unlike an amputated arm, you have the ability to make a choice to eschew shyness in favor of some outgoing mode of interaction. It's not going to be pleasant initially if you're not used to it, but you still have the choice to take that action. You might even choke up due to a nervous system response that actually is out of your control, but that response can be dampened with practice.

I say this as someone who generally has difficulty socializing, but I try regardless. It gets easier.

I am often very shy and I agree that it’s a big handicap. It’s just like any other anxiety that limits your life so there is nothing good about it. Being an introvert is another thing though. If you are alone because if your choice instead is fear there is nothing wrong with that.

In the end it’s about choice. Shyness removes choices. I have missed a lot of things in my life I would have liked to join in but was too shy and afraid.

It's a handicap mostly imposed by other people and external systems. I think the point of asking the question is to get people to reconsider imposing those handicaps on other people.

Not everyone likes extroverted, talkative people, especially when so many of these people wind up putting their foot in their mouths at some point.

A shy person can have an advantage when it comes to empathy and listening. I've developed some very good relationships as a shy person.

I don't think they are saying being shy is bad itself, but that it gives you a distinct disadvantage in the modern world, especially in the work place and in politics.

> ... put their foot in their mouths ...

Sounds mighty judgmental rather than empathetic if you ask me.

I don't know... I've always believed there are lots of benefits to being a "late bloomer".

(of course I guess being reserved or conservative or shy or a late bloomer might not be the same thing)

Whether or not a social/economic handicap are necessarily "very bad things" depends entirely on the social and economic goals of the individual in question. Some people are satisfied with having enough, and have no interest in participating in the race to the top of the food chain their whole lives.

That's not how it works: we've build a "winner take it all" or at least a "winner takes more" society... differences get amplified: if you earn 10% less than a similarly competent but more socially adept peer today, you'll earn 25% less 5 year from now, maybe 50% less 10 year later etc... Then when you take on a bank credit/loan you get a slightly higher interest option, when you buy a house or land you get a slightly worse deal and so on.

Sure some shy people hit jackpots, they invent cool stuff that catches on, maybe the co-found companies... but most don't.

It's horribly imho! But this is the truth, this is the society/world we live in :|

(See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_effect - and I'm afraid might not even be bc of our particular current society, it might come from the very math and physics of how selection and evolution work...)

It is how it works. Not everybody is frantically trying to be the next ultra-billionaire. An alien thought for many on HN, I know.

"Not everybody is frantically trying to be the next ultra-billionaire" ...as long as things work out for you, yeah, maybe, but when shit hits the fan it might be more about not ending up depressed-to-suicide by being the poorest chap in the neighborhood or not ending up unable to get health insurance!

I know this is alien to you, but many people do not care one wit about being the richest in the neighborhood. It is within the capacity of a human being to break themselves free from the "keeping up with the Joneses" race, but perhaps not within the capacity of every individual. If you're the sort of hyper-competitive person who becomes borderline suicidal because their shy personality limits them to an adequate income, then obviously you're going to be in for a rough life. But that experience is not universal.

(Also, it's absurd to say anybody who is shy is doomed to have no health insurance.)

> I know this is alien to you, but many people do not care one wit about being the richest in the neighborhood.

There's some middle ground between being the richest and not being the poorest. Most people want to be relatively well off and not struggle to make ends meet, even if, compared to somebody 200 years ago, they are in much better circumstances.

> "Most people want to be relatively well off and not struggle to make ends meet,"

'Relatively well off' is subjective, and for many people it means "not struggle to make ends meet", e.g. 'adequate income'.

There are certainly some paths through life in which a shy person will have difficulty making even a modest income. A shy person trying to work as a salesman would probably find life very difficult. However there are plenty of other sorts of jobs that suit shy people, and provide income that many people consider to be adequate.

“An alien thought for many on HN, I know.”

My sense is that most people here would be happy with a secure and intellectually interesting life. I think the people who want to be billionaires don’t waste time posting here.

Well, I see a lot of upvotes for posts like "How can I make bitcoin mining profitable?" and "How I made thousands doing random-simple-thing".

> My sense is that most people here would be happy with a secure and intellectually interesting life.

I believe that most here have that. Sure, security isn't objectively measured, you can have $10m an still feel insecure about the future, but I doubt that there are many (relatively) here that don't know how they will pay rent next month.

I think it's a bit more complex than that. In the past, segregation of duties at companies was much more common than it is today. If you were an introverted techie, there was no shortage of jobs where you could focus on that aspect of the job while the majority of the human interaction aspects were handled by someone else.Now, it is much more common that those two jobs have been rolled into one - it's obviously more efficient, and provided there is a ready supply of people that can handle (or more accurately, are perceived to be able to handle) this dual role, it works out great for the employer and arguably the aggregate productivity of society.

But what is often overlooked whenever looking at the world through an aggregate lens is the impact at the individual level. Yes, there certainly are some "pure technical" jobs out there, the pickings are slimmer than they used to be, at least for the average introverted technical person (top x-percenters can still make their way just fine, but is x in this context shrinking over time?).

You're right that some industries have become less hospitable to shy people. But frankly I've always seen tech as a high-effort/high-payoff sort of industry. Where, even if that meritocratic ideal is far from realized in practice, it's still a large factor in why many people are in the industry. They plan on working as hard as they can to get the best payout they can. This is an inherently competitive environment, which consequently will tend to be hostile to introverts.

That's not to say an introvert can't do well in the industry. But if the individual in question is hyper-competitive in addition to being shy, they're probably going to hate the experience. The trait of hyper-competitiveness does not sit well with shyness.

My point though is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to be competitive at all for those who are shy or unable/unwilling to engage in the theatrics required in an increasing percentage of technical roles. The degree to which this is true I do not know, but I feel quite certain that it has increased significantly.

>Not everybody is frantically trying to be the next ultra-billionaire

So you say there's a chance?

Sadly, we have killed humbleness some decades ago.

There are often cognitive advantages associated with shy people. But of course this article advertises treatment.

edit: With BCT, the acupuncture of psychology.

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