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Comment by axiom | Hacker News Reader

This is the difference between business-to-business versus buying consumer goods. You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective. So you have a fixed price for everyone. However you can (and should) negotiate with people buying $20k worth of services from you.

Historically, the consumer experience is actually the exception, not b2b. Up until fairly recently it was standard practice to haggle for everything you buy. It's only the rise of the middle class and of huge companies that sell goods/services to millions that brought about this new idea of fixed prices that aren't open to negotiation.

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I bargain for almost everything (much to my wife's embarrassment :). One thing I've found, is that if you can't get them to reduce the price, you can often get extras thrown in. I recently bought a fairly expensive coffee machine (a real one, not one of those electronic ones); supplier wouldn't budge on price, but I did manage to get $400 credited to my account, 2x barrista training vouchers worth $150 each, and a few other little bits. Extra value to me, over $700. Cost to supplier, assuming reasonable markup, probably less than $300. Win win.

Edit: few things:

* Most important of all - don't be a dick. Be friendly, honest and don't waste people's time

* If you can, hold of your purchase until you get the deal you're looking for. When I got my macbook, I when to a number of places and in the end got free applecare and a free case.

* If you're buying white/brown goods (except computers), a simple "What price can you do on that?" will almost always see a 10% discount, sometimes way more.

* Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.

* If something on offer, the person selling it want's to get rid of it, and will most likely negotiate. Best example is food at the end of the day. Walking past a stand discounting the remaining donuts for $6/box, but you've only got $4? Make an offer anyway.

er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)

Yeah better stop with the haggling for stale donuts ;)

What are "white/brown goods"?

white goods are fridges, washing machines and the like. brown goods are tvs, stereos etc

>brown goods are tvs, stereos etc

Huh. I've always heard those referred to (on the few rare occasions) as black goods. Maybe it's generational.

White goods are washing machines, dish washers, fridges…, while brown goods are the audio/video stuff (TVs, stereo).

Kind of old fashion but based on the typical color of these items (mostly from a couple of decades or more ago: washing machines and fridges are in many colors and A/V stuff is almost always black and/or silver)

According to Wikipedia, it seems to be mostly a UK idiom.

This idiom appears exactly the same in Dutch (and thus possibly other languages too?)

In French too (produits blancs/bruns).

German as well :) (Weisse Ware / braune Ware)

Italian too. We could probably say that this is an European thing. ;)

Portuguese too: branco/marrom

Línea blanca in Spanish

Browngoods refers to Bakelite. Once, all radios / radiograms were made of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite

Great comment.

> * Some stock is in constant demand, and you'll almost never get a discount. Black mens trousers, for example.

The flipside is, if you're a guy and you're willing to wear light blue, pink, purple, and yellow, you can get some seriously great buys. You can get very high quality clothes in those colors for dirt cheap sometimes, which is why around half of my wardrobe is bright.

It takes a little aesthetic knowledge so you don't look ridiculous, but everyone should probably learn a little basic aesthetics anyways - it's one of those areas that a tiny bit of knowledge pays huge dividends.

Very true, but how does one go about gaining this knowledge?

Here's a few suggestions, in ascending order of subjective difficulty to the average HN user:

Smashing Magazine (which doubles as good for web design).

Study the color wheel, read analyses of ways to use it.

Fashion websites.

Go to lots of museums.

Go to art galleries.

Flip through 2-3 fashion magazines per month at the bookstore.

Read book(s) on how to dress for different functions.

Go to high end stores and try things on.

Talk to artists, designers, architects, painters, etc. about why things look the way they look.

Take some art class, either crafting/doing-based, or art history.

Go with some sort of visual artist to a museum, and ask their thoughts about paintings.

Get a girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other who is an artist.

Any of those would help. The more you layer on, probably the faster you learn.

Also, study fashion/clothing advertisements. Scrutinize and analyze why they chose what they chose... many fashion ads will be regarded as high art in the distant future, because immense amounts of preparation, lighting, setting, and skill goes into making them. Almost anything that's in one is in it for a reason. Look at it and ask, "Why did they choose this? What are they trying to say/portray? Why this background/environment with that sort of clothing?" It's not instant gratification on the last one, but soon you start seeing the patterns. It's kind of beautifully awesome when you do.

"Study the color wheel, read analyses of ways to use it."

Do you have any specific resources or tips on how this relates to clothing? I've done this, and tried to argue my case in color choices based on this, but generally I've been laughed at when I bring this up. (probably because other factors also come into play and I'm about as blind as a mole when it comes to choosing colors).

I've used it to pick out shirts with suits. I've picked out scarves based on my jackets. You can go monochromatic (shades of all one color) or you can do some cool three-color looks at the... points on the wheel? (sorry, I'm not so versed in the terminology)

We're talking about art here more than science, so there's no breakthrough right answer like in mathematics. My experience is that I'm more savvy and I start to notice the patterns, but my skill level isn't high enough that I can lecture on the topic intelligently. It's like, after doing all this stuff I have intuitions when shopping for clothing and dressing, and I tend to get complimented on what I wear, which didn't happen before I studied.

I hate vague answers like that - I wish I could give you something more concrete. It's not the "oh you just have to figure it out" whimsical idealism, it's that I lack the skill to give a more cohesive and concrete explanation... apologies for that. If you know anyone who is an excellent photographer or painter, and is also good at explaining things analytical, they might be able to provide more answers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complimentary_colors

One tenet of color theory.

Or you can look at all the time you'd spend doing all this, figure out the opportunity cost and simply pay full price for the pants.

Try strange things, see if people chuckle.

(Experience is a harsh teacher.)

It also helps to know fabric. 10-15 years back, my wife wrote an article, "Fabric for Bachelors":

http://www.virtue.to/fabric/

How is losing $450 a win for the seller? You mean it was a requirement to get your business, to throw in $450 of extras? I hope it was a very real coffee machine. Plumbed variety? :)

He didn't lose money, he sold something at a smaller profit (we assume he's intelligent enough that he didn't cut his margin down beyond cost). The reason it's a win for him is that it's a sale he wouldn't otherwise have made and therefore a profit he wouldn't otherwise have had.

There are potential downsides (if it was his last one he might have missed the chance to sell it for full price, it might be seen as setting a precedent) but generally salesmen understand these and figure them into their reasoning.

> er... think I'l stop before this looks like a post on Lifehacker or something :)

Yea, let's lay low. We don't want gnosis thinking we're another gawker site or something.

Where did you end up getting a MacBook with free Applecare? I want in on this!

JB HiFi, Cockburn (yes, that's a real suburb (pronounced co-burn)) in Perth

Got it late one evening early 2009 or late 2008. It's one of the first gen unibody Al macbooks. Conversation was something like

"Hang on, let me go check with the boss"

[few minutes later] "We can't drop the price, but if you're willing to buy it right now we can throw in free Applecare and a free case"

"Deal"

You can't waste time negotiating with every client who buys a $50 pair of shoes from you - it's just not cost effective.

This is where price discrimination comes in, and it is staggeringly effective: coupons, sales, discounts, etc etc. The great thing about fixed prices is that there are so many to choose from!

Or even easier: put the same shampoo in three different bottles and charge three different prices.

Or in a more scrupulous light: let some pay for a story and others pay for a commodity.

A friend worked on a documentary about a major UK supermarket a while back. Talking to them off camera they admitted that their budget range chickens and their regular chickens where identical save the packaging.

I'm not entirely surprised but I don't see where's the incentive for them to behave like this. They double the lines they must carry and are surely to some degree both undercutting themselves and overcharging so reducing sales. Surely they could achieve better results with a mid-range pricing and labelling?

Big supermarkets also lease shelf space. So they are competing with their leasees products in two different segments.

* I don't see where's the incentive for them to behave like this.*

They almost certainly get more money.

They are selling the budget chickens to the budget customers at a profit. They are getting the same chickens at a larger profit to other people.

When firms offer price discrimination (that's what this is called formally, offering different prices to various classes of consumer) they are making more money by taking the consumer surplus that would have been made (the extra money a consumer would have paid for the good).

Think of it this way: a rich man is willing to pay up to $10.00 for the chicken breast that his family needs for dinner, but his blue-collar cousin can only afford $6.00 at the most. Had the grocery store only created one line with the price of $8.00, their revenue from these two consumers would be only the rich man's sale, 8 dollars. If, on the other hand, the store had two lines, one for $5 and one for $10, they can make 15 dollars from these two shoppers!

Hope that clears it up.

No, I'm aware of the theory, I'm just not at all convinced it actually works out anything like this in practice - particularly once the extra costs of carrying the same line artificially twice are factored in. Oh well - they know their business but it still sounds fishy to me!

Or "Over 65s get 10% discount on thursdays" type thing.

I learnt about price discrimination in a pop-economics book a few years ago, and it's everywhere. One of the most important things I've ever learnt.

What I love about price discrimination is that sometimes you have to think through a few steps to figure out who the target demographics are, which makes it a sort of game for me. Sometimes it's obvious (senior discounts), but often it's a little more indirect. One of my favorites: I drive a diesel, and every Monday Shell sells their diesel at a discount of $0.10/gal. I figure that they're trying to discriminate between businesses (the overwhelming majority of diesel drivers in the U.S.) and individuals: a long-haul trucker has to buy gas right when he needs it, and probably can't just put it off until Monday; I typically use slightly more than half a tank of gas each week, so I rarely need gas so badly that I can't put it off until Monday.

Though I would think if you want to get consumers rather than trucks, you would do it on Sunday becuase that is the day most truckers take off.

The weekly diesel discount might also be a good way of attracting loyal customers from local businesses who operate diesel vehicles.

Here's a thought: Could it be a form of weak lock-in? If you fill your tank on Monday, then you're less likely to fill up at that cheaper gas station on Thursday. When the next Monday comes around, you're probably going to need to fill up again, and well, there they are :)

In many places people still haggle for most things.

Even where I live (Melbourne, Australia) a very non bargaining place, some restaurant districts have bargaining cultures. If you play your cards right, you can get wine and dessert thrown in if you order the steak, site by the window before the dinner rush (makes the restaurant look full).

My point is that bargaining norms aren't necessarily evolved from necessity, it's often just cultural quirks. This video is poking fun at a particularly quirky subculture.

I'm living in Melbourne and I am unaware of this. Wine and dessert? Surely you must be joking.

Take a walk down Lygon st or Hardware Lane of an evening. All the maitre d's will vi for your business with the best deal. You play it cool and you can get 30%+ off the menu costs especially in a large group (Lygon St for groups, Hardware Lane can be touch and go on tables as it is smaller).

I am a bit more shifty as I normally have the target place chosen before I even leave home and will try to make sure the maitre d' seeing me chatting to next door so I can play him off against them.

It is all good natured and they expect it.

Now I have an image of Lygon St spruikers madly typing in vi...

A near lifelong citizen of Fitzroy and Brunswick, I've noticed that locals have shifted heavily away from Lygon St - for me, I refuse to eat there simply because even after you've had a satisfying dinner, you can't walk down the street without being accosted by every spruiker you come across. Having to walk a couple of hundred meters continually chanting "no thanks, we just ate, we just ate" takes the shine from a good dinner. I'd rather pay for dessert and wine than run the spruiker gauntlet...

For the rest of us.

spruiker:

(Australian) One who promotes his own cause; one who toots their own horn.

(figurative) A person standing outside a place of business trying to persuade patrons to enter, or vigourously trying to persuade customers to purchase a their wares (ie. a fruiterer calling out the price of bananas)

It can sometimes be quite surprising to learn which words are a part of your local vernacular.:)

There's the decent end of lygon where you can get great italian for cheap prices like tiamo.

then there's the gauntlet of death down the other end. we generally walk the back streets to avoid the spruikers

Slightly related: In pretty much any store which has sales people that come and talk to you those people have the ability to knock 5-10% off if you ask for it. Cheap things aren't worth negotiating a lot for, but they certainly can be negotiated and the other side will quite happily make a small concession normally since it pays off in happy customers.

This is why always asking for a discount is worth it.

The medical equipment company I used to work for had a 5% discount that they built into every sale - people rarely paid full price, so sometimes just asking 'can you do better?' on high cost items will at least get you this "auto" discount.

Well on the software side I saw it as the difference between software as a product, versus bespoke development (although it can get fuzzy with enterprise sales, I am sure) - but the principle is the same. Many consumers == no wasting time (and no need) bargaining, vs 1 consumer: you have no choice.

True, on the other hand scenarios very similar to this do happen in real world consumer retail situations. If any of your friends work in retail show them this video and ask if they have any stories about customers.

Exactly. Funny is, I've seen this video months ago (or more) linked as 'pay for marketing/advertising/webdesign', so it applies to most industries.

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