Why Was Mini USB Deprecated in Favor of Micro USB? | Hacker News Reader

Why Was Mini USB Deprecated in Favor of Micro USB?

electronics.stackexchange.com

292 pointsliyanage210 comments

This is a great answer, but for some reason the author left out the most obvious of reasons. Mini-USB put the mechanical strain of the connection on the socket side, while Micro-USB puts that strain on the cable side. Since its much easier to toss a cable vs remove and solder in a new socket connector the average cycle lifetime became much less critical in general.

For a few years I was bringing my Happy Hacking Keyboard to and from work every day, meaning (at least) 2 plug/unplug pairs per weekday. I'm kind of surprised it still works because it's pretty old.

I eventually got a second one which I leave at the office, but was kind of surprised that years later they hadn't replaced mini with micro. There are some mods people are building to replace the mini port with type-c, and I expect I'll try something like that when it eventually starts to fail.

I don't see how that can be true: https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...

Electro mechanical connection requires springiness action to be reliable - one side of the connector needs to work pushing pins together. In full size and mini USB elastic pins are inside sockets, plugs have rigid contacts

http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/image/cache/data/rapid/mini-us...

Micro swaps that around, moving prone to failure (bend/pushed pin etc) elements into the cable.

The photo below "Micro USB" is not Micro USB. The connector shown there looks more like a USB Mini-A socket.

A real USB Micro socket looks like this: https://cf.ydcdn.net/latest/images/computer/_MICUSB.GIF

That is not a micro USB socket shown in the picture

The receptacle shown above "Micro USB" is incorrect; it's a Mini-AB receptacle.

What about the fact that mini-USB was mandated as a connector standard (1) in the European Union to standardize phone charger connections?

(1)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply

Except it wasn't. They standardized on micro-usb.

Edit: from your Wikipedia article - "A common EPS must include a cable with a micro USB-B connector for connecting to a mobile phone."

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2009/06/10-companies-agree-t...

I apologize, that was a typo. I did mean to say micro USB.

This was true of the first revision of Mini-USB, I'm told, but not subsequent revisions. The wearing components were moved to the cable while retaining compatibility with the older design.

The rumor of socket-side wear persisted well after the design change (all the way up to today, as evidenced by your comment, and many others) so Micro-USB was created to work around the confusion regarding Mini-USB entirely by simply creating a new connector.

I truly hope micro-USB wasn't created to avoid that confusion.

For one, the number of people that even knew about the issue with mini-USB was barely none.

And the massive confusion micro-USB has contributed to is just unimaginable.

Device manufacturers knew all about it, even though very few customers knew or cared.

I can speak to this. I have a Google Nexus 7 tablet with the mini-USB connection which I’m no longer able to use because the port simply will not hold a cable effectively enough to charge it.

And for those who disbelieve the 'it isn't reliable' story, I've got some worthless evaluation boards you can have where the mini-USB plug will no longer reliably hold on to a USB cable. Not a data set I realize, but I was glad when people switched to micro which has proven more reliable for me.

Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.

Yeah I recently moved to a Galaxy S10 which is my first device I use on a regular basis that has a USB-C port. The size of the connector, reversible nature, data throughput, and power throughput are excellent.

The interconnect itself though leaves a bit to be desired. I still think that lightning is more satisfying from a tactile standpoint. I think USB still has the issue of the floating spade in the female connector. When inserting a cable, I will sometimes catch the spade and I often worry about if this degrades the life of the connector.

I've found my biggest issue is that over many months it gets a thin film of grime deep inside that I have to pick out with a needle to make it work again properly. Micro and C both, but with C it's way easier to break the contacts while cleaning.

Try a wooden toothpick instead of a metal needle.

Wooden toothpicks are often too thick. My swiss army knife has a flat plastic toothpick that seems to have been designed exactly for the job of cleaning USB-C ports: https://i.redd.it/79iesas532521.jpg

Thanks, that is a neat idea! What also works are these plastic cocktail sticks that are used for little appetizers on partys.

Cut a corner at an oblique angle and it makes the perfect implement.

If you look at the minutes of the committee meetings you'll see this was an explicit design choice.

(Actually I'm kidding, but it would make a funny rumour.)

Edit: curse you HN for the otherwise sensible collapsing of blank lines..makes these jokes harder.

Lightning has the same issue. And while there's more space, the springy pins are also part of the socket rather than the plug so it's a bit iffy.

> The size of the connector, reversible nature

The non-reversible nature of USB A connectors drives me crazy - is it only me that ends up turning them and failing at least 3 times before they slot in?!

http://innoculous.com/2016/01/the-quantum-physics-of-usb-plu...

Haha, love it, it's not just me then!

I don't have issues believing that, but I still kinda need an ELI5 of why micro is more durable. The accepted answer on SO briefly addresses it but I'm not really any wiser, maybe in part because I'm not a native speaker.

For the mini, the wobbly springy bits are in the device, for the micro the wobbly springy bits are in the cable. The cable is cheaper and easier to replace. The springy bits bend out of shape over time and fail.

That is an excellent way to put it, I'm going to steal that if you don't mind.

I don't mind in the slightest. Use any way you please.

Now that truly qualifies as a concise ELI5. Well done. :-)

I still don't get this:

https://i2.wp.com/www.cheapharddrivesstorage.com/wp-content/...

Here is a mini usb socket showing the metal latch that pushes into the plug: https://image.dhgate.com/albu_198781941_00/1.0x0.jpg

Here is the other side of the micro usb plug, showing the two metal latches that push into the socket: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/OesAAOSwxu5ZF07R/s-l300.jpg

And like someone else said, that ain't a micro usb socket in your image.

That micro usb photo is actually a rare mini usb.

USB-C usability on laptops for peripherals and especially power is bad. The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance. For charging even barrel connectors were better, but prefer the magnetic connectors.

Magnetic really seems great for connections, I wonder why it isn't used more.

With nicer connectors, and non-standard connectors, there's usually additional manufacturing cost involved that makes for expensive plugs and cables. As such the standards get driven by every manufacturer wanting to save a few pennies on I/O, while acknowledging that some applications might prefer quick removal or a secure lock.

I have a pair of high-end AKG headphones that uses a "mini-XLR" connection. This is a non-standard variant of the popular 3-pin XLR used throughout pro audio equipment. When the provided cable that converts mini-XLR to 3.5mm TRS started failing, I went onto Amazon and found a generic $11 cable, but within a week of use it became clear that it was poorly made, with a metal cap acting as the only source of strain relief.

I've ordered another adapter, one that adapts the plug to 3.5mm without a cable, and it also costs $11. Not as bad cost-wise as some Apple device cables, but fingers crossed.

There being an Apple patent [1] involved doesn't help.

[1] - https://patents.google.com/patent/US7311526B2/en

Apple didn't make the first magnetic connector. It was already common for fondue sets. The patent is about Apple's particular implementation.

I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to work around if people really wanted to.

Unless Microsoft paid or has cross licensing agreements with Apple, they also use mag connectors on some of their hardware offerings.

Even Apple has stopped using it, though.

Rumor is that it had reliability issues (and I'm seeing that with my own MagSafe plug), but of course no official word.

> The connectors become loose and come out with little resistance.

Seems to me on laptops that's a good thing, so if you trip over the cable the connector is more likely to come out, than the laptop crashing down?

I don't really ever move my laptop around while anything is plugged into it, so I think that's the right tradeoff.

USB C is no MagSafe.

Nobody's saying it is. But surely if USB-C is a little bit closer to MagSafe in terms of coming out a little more easily, that's a good thing?

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I think it's more like whitewashing - where the 'meh' is the enemy of 'better, and already exists and works'

The problem with USB C is that it carries data as well, so the easier you make it able to fall out the more likely it’s going to do so when you’re trying to run bits through it.

I agree, I now have my first laptop with a USB-C and within months I'm terrified of someone coming by and grabbing the cable just hard enough at just the wrong angle to rip the connector off of it's contacts.

I looked into it a little since this seems like a ridiculously obvious design flaw (rely on SMT contacts for mechanical strength against yanking?) and I think at least the reasonable ones use a chassis mount USB receptacle there. I hope. I very much hope.

I’ve been using an aftermarket magnetic connector on my usb-c laptop for several months now. It consists of a low-profile adapter that just lives in one of the usb-c ports, and a bulkier conversion socket that plugs onto the end of my existing cable. So far, it’s been great! It has a weaker hold than my old MagSafe adapters, which is sometimes great and sometimes a hassle.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B07GPHSLX4

> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.

Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design, and learning from the limitations of lighting were reflected in its design.

Like you I really like the small profile of lightning, but the design of the Type C connector does have two important advantages thanks to its shell/shroud design:

1 - The "springy" piece that deforms is the cable not the receptacle. That means when the connection becomes flimsy this is more likely to be the replaceable cables (though some of the cables can be pricy, it's likely still cheaper than replacing the device)

2 - the shroud is ground and is longer than the pins, thus you have a ground connection before you get to any signal or power (like the longer ground pin in UK and Schuko connectors. This doesn't matter much for a USB2 cable but is a safety issue when you have 100W on the cable.

And back to Apple: much as lightning is good for them, it isn't really an instrument of MFI enforcement; they can enforce that just as well with type C. They already have type C iPads so I expect they'll gradually abandon lightning. The iPod 30-pin connector lasted about 9 years and lightning is 7 years old so this isn't unreasonable. And I believe it would make the EU happy.

"Apple was a major contributor to the Type C design"

Citation?

As far as i know, it was created almost entirely by a team at Google, and the agreement to get Apple on board was to not publicize this fact. Which is really sad, because then John Gruber then went off and credited their work to Apple without bothering to fact check it.

IIRC, Apple was not even at the USB meeting where it was first presented.

I'm sure post coming on board Apple contributed, but yeah.

(Various xooglers and others have confirmed all this publicly now, AFAIK)

One interesting data point (though I really don't care where this all leads):

18 of the 79 named engineers worked for Apple.

https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec.pdf

My sense is the spec was designed by a consortium and no one company owns it, but I would bet Apple did contribute lessons from lightning to it.

What I remember reading was that Apple’s engineers did most of the design work on the physical connector itself, and were the ones pushing for it to be reversible, be usable as a laptop charging port, etc.

I suspect that Apple is planning to move to wireless charging; instead of replacing Lightning with USB-C, it will just ship a phone with no physical ports whatsoever.

Wireless charging is highly inefficient and wastes energy, so I hope it won’t become a widely adopted standard.

Otherwise imagine that waste multiplied by millions.

And if that is the only way to charge then I’d have to carry the base station wherever I go, it’s quite bulky.

And you’d still need a data port so I doubt apple will remove the ability to charge via a cable.

data could be wireless so a waterproof dustproof design is possible (look at the watch)

But you’re right: wireless charging is too inefficient and thus slow, so I also doubt they’ll really go there.

Phones consume a miniscule amount of power compared to other things you probably use. Even if it is 20% efficient if is still a drop in the ocean compared to air conditioners, tumble driers, fridges, ovens, kettles, toasters, hair driers, etc.

Small changes are still small when you "multiply them by millions" because all the big things get multiplied too.

It is a bigger deal in the developing world where these phones will end up in 5 years.

> Wireless charging is highly inefficient and wastes energy, so I hope it won’t become a widely adopted standard.

I find it rather useful with my toothbrush. While I'm very much pro environment it is not like we're talking about huge batteries here.

>While I'm very much pro environment it is not like we're talking about huge batteries here.

There are 900M iPhone users and expected 1B user by end of 2020. If you Multiple that by 10% - 20% Energy loss from Wireless Charging compare to Wired, that is a lot of wasted energy going forward.

An iPhone holds 7.45 Watt hours, so if you fully charge it every day it's ~2.8kWh / year. 20% power loss is 560 Wh/year. US electricity use is ~13 MWh per capita per year (let alone total energy use).

I know it sounds wasteful, but it's very important to triage ways to conserve energy, otherwise you end up with things like the awful "unplug your phone chargers" campaign.

I use it for my wireless headphones. It yields convenience. For small batteries, wireless isn't much of a waste. There are other ways to be mindful for the environment. Ways which have bigger impact. Not opting for a wireless charging for environmental reasons is in this case more a matter of "feel good". I get free electricity from the sun as well, and I would save more on electricity by getting a new washing machine (current is 7 years old).

https://www.wired.com/story/apple-kills-airpower/

Killing one attempt to make a simpler wireless charger doesn’t mean killing the idea of universal wireless charging.

Agree on the MFi, Apple could just enforce MFi for USB-C as well. ( People don't like this idea and I often get called out for even mentioning it )

But I don't think Type C is heading towards iPhone for a few reason.

1. The iPad needed 10Gbps connection and possibly more in the future with USB 3.2 2x2 ( Or what ever it is I cant remember ), that is something lightning will not provide. ( Technically I don't see Lightning missing out any pins to do it, assuming they use pin from both sides, but my guess is Apple don't want to complicate things )

2. The USB 3.2 2x2 Controller is way larger, I doubt Apple is going to put 10Gbps on iPhone.

3. They want you on iCloud, not backing up on your Mac / iTunes. ( It is sad I wish they could at least give me the option of iOS Time Capsule )

4. What is the point of replacing Lightning if they are going to enforce MFi on USB-C?

If anything I really wish they make lightning 2.0 spec that is more durable.

> The USB 3.2 2x2 Controller is way larger, I doubt Apple is going to put 10Gbps on iPhone.

10GBps is Gen 2×1 (or Gen 1×2); 2×2 is 20Gbps.

To add to your post. I was part of an effort to develop several remote controls for a company. The micro USB was always the first thing that died. Like you, I had a graveyard of broken remotes. Dozens.

Oddly enough I've actually had much worse reliability with Lightning than with MicroUSB. Our home has suffered bad from corroded power pins[0].

What happens is you have one lightning cable with a bad contact, and that causes electric arcing to corrode the power pin in the phone, and now the phone will have bad contact with any new cable you bring in, causing arcing on that cable. Now if you have multiple devices in a household sharing the same charging cables, the "plague" spreads. The only solution is to buy all new chargers, iPhones and iPads all at the same time.

[0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/lightning-cables-failing-due-t...

I would be very surprised if you were getting arc damage with five volts at two amps. More plausible would be some electrochemical/galvanic corrosion effect.

Arcing and corrosion isn't contagious. Humidity causes arcing and corrosion; corrosion would prevent arcing for the same reason it would prevent charging -- it increases resistance.

Then what IS the explanation for all of our lightning cables quickly developing blackened and pitted power pins? This was the only explanation I could find.

There were a number of people posting in forums about this back in 2014 or so. Apple even went so far as to contact folks and ask them to send the cables in for analysis. As far as I know, the consensus was that perhaps the port contact spring was failing to maintain a good connection.

I don't know what the current status is but it doesn't seem to be an inherent design issue, except for the fact that the port has the springy bits and isn't easily replaced.

> Of course lightning was better still but alas Apple wasn't going to share that with the world so we have USB C.

And for me USB-C has been the most unreliable connector by far - I've had more of them fail that any prior sort of USB connector. But that comes with a caveat - it's always the cables that fail. Replace the cable and it's all good again. I'm coming to accept the fact that any USB-C cable used daily will have to be replaced within the year, which is really annoying. The USB micro A connector is far more reliable.

Mini/Micro USB also suffers from a superposition rule* much like the A connector: whenever you need a mini or micro cable, your drawer will be completely full of the opposite type.

* https://imgur.com/gallery/kYGTLjc

My cheap lightning cables are not commutative. If it doesn't work, flip it over and it might work.

I people have been voting this down, but I have seen this very occasionally in the wild. I don't have a good theory; my guess is either some tolerance combined with gunk on a pin or gunk on a bin that is dislodged by removal and re-insertion. But it doesn't happen enough for a good controlled experiment.

I have the same problem with Anker lightning cables, which I don't consider that "cheap", on both an iPhone SE and an iPad air.

The issue persists even after replacing the iPhone lightning port with a brand new one, across two different Anker cables.

I guess I'll be sticking to original Apple cables, still, it's mildly infuriating.

I suspect there is circuitry involved in these cables, and it is either not implemented, poorly implemented or prone to failure.

mini usb is basically extinct in my house. But now I’ve got the same conundrum with micro and usb-c. Oh what I wouldn’t give for one connector to rule them all.

Currently my desktop keyboard, ereader and OP-1 have mini USB. Guess I'll be stuck with it for a long time

There are still new devices being sold with Mini-USB sockets, e.g. the handheld audio recorders by Zoom. (They plug into USB to function as external sound cards.)

I've been using 2-in-1 Micro/USB-C cables found on AliExpress for about a year now and have been giving them out to all my friends as gifts. Haven't heard of any going bad yet. The ones I picked have "leashes" so that the USB-C cap doesn't get lost.

Strange. My PS3 has been in regular use since 2011 or so (the console itself being a used launch model from 2008), and I don't recall the mini-USB port on the controller ever failing to charge. I suppose I'd have to check the serial number on the controller, though, to see if it's actually that one that came with the console--I may have switched it out with one that I bought later for multiplayer purposes without realizing it.

The controller only gets charged once every three weeks or so, now that I think about it, so it could well still be under that failure threshold.

My ps3 has to have the controllers cocked at the right angle to charge. Mileage I guess varies.

I have to agree, again, anecdotally. I have Mini cables and devices that have been in use for well over a decade. I've never in my life had a Mini cable fail on me.

I've had countless Micro cables fail on me electro-mechanically. Usually either the latch fails, not a huge deal, but not great, or the contacts "flatten" or don't contact any more.

I've lost so many that I've taken to cutting the bad connectors off and soldering new ones on since I have the tools and the skills, and I don't buy cheap cables (in the hope they'll last longer) so the rest of it is usually worth saving.

The original mini-b port was rated for 1000 insertion MTBF (I swear one friend's cellphones were closer to 500, as they were going through 3 a year.)

It was revised to fail at 5000 MTBF, much more acceptable for something that may be plugged in multiple times a day.

Micro USB was rated I believe at 10k MTBF, and moved the faily bits to the cable.

The USB-IF obsoleted the Mini-A and Mini-AB plugs at that point (which are really only used for USB-OTG, which is rare). They still let the 5k MTBF mini sockets get certified on new devices, however.

I'm aware of the ratings, I'm just trying to say that in my experience, no matter what the numbers say, reality has proved the opposite for me, I've had far more (some number I've not counted, but, in the order of dozens) Micro ports/plugs fail on my than I've had Mini ones fail (none, ever).

I'm skeptical. Hands up anyone who hasn't had dozens of micro USB cables fail on them because of the connector?

That's the new trade-off. The cable plug fails instead of the socket on the device. Cables are cheap.

The cable plug is supposed to fail instead of the socket on the device. Actual testing[1] demonstrates that the microUSB socket on the device does not last the rated 10k cycles and also that the cable lasts longer than the socket on the device.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE

TL;DW- Repeated insertion and removal led to the socket on the microUSB SSD failing after 8000 cycles, cable was still fine. USB-C still worked after 8000 cycles.

That video tested insertions, which is not the only type of abuse phones take. Falling, being shoved into poor angles, being removed from charging at a suboptimal angle (eg, walking away with it plugged in), for example are more common causes of phone cord failure in microusb.

That is statisticaly insignificant show test: sample of 1. Moreover the micro-USB-B 3.0 was tested which is wider, harder to plug as has much more pins to fail vs more common micro USB-B 2.0

I've suspected this myself, but I think they went too far. Even minor incidents are prone to breaking a micro-USB connector where a mini-USB would tough it out. But there's a bigger chance of damaging the mini-USB port. All in all I think the micro-USB connector could have been made a little sturdier without excessive danger to the port.

On the other hand, I've never fatally damaged a Lightning cable OR port, despite some fairly bad accidents (drops that land on the connector for example). The only failures were a couple where the outer coating started to come off right past the strain relief, the connector itself was always solid for me.

The jury is still out on USB-C for me. I just don't have enough datapoints, but it does seem more robust on the surface and finally (finally!) the cable can be inserted in either orientation.

In my house, I replace at least one lightning cable per month. If those are even tugged in the wrong direction, they will bend or break entirely. Also, the copper pad contact surfaces on the surface of the connector often simply fall out of the plug itself, rendering the cable useless.

I'm buying Apple cables from Apple, as well. The lightning connector is garbage, and is easily the worst device interface cable I have ever seen.

Also note that the springs on a lightning connector are on the socket and not the plug.

Lightning cables and sockets are designed to wear out quickly, forcing replacement early and often.

[deleted]

If they get near me or my family, our aura will wreck those cables, no matter how old or new they are.

You might have a device in your home with a broken socket

I have an old iPhone 5 where the socket is messed up in a way where it will instantly break a lightning connector if you plug it in, making it so the cable only works with that phone.

As a contracting data point, I’m still using my out of the box lightning cable of my iPhone 5 to charge my iPhone X. That cable is over 6 years old now and it did not break, stray or lost is reliability in any way.

Maybe they forgot to add the secret sauce to my copy, who knows.

P.S.: My iPhone 5s lightning port is also good as new. Just needs an occasional grime removal with a wooden toothpick.

I've had zero failures with mini, dozens of failures of micro cables and two failures of micro sockets. All the micro failures were in the early days, though, these days micro cables from the dollar store seem to last.

My new phone is USB-C, yay!

I have plenty of tales of impatient boomer relatives who have jammed up the micro-USB port on their devices by forcing it in the wrong way. It was a lot harder to do this with mini-USB, and I'm glad the subsequent revision (USB-C) is largely foolproof.

My grandmother once jammed a USB-A plug into an RJ45 socket. I needed large pliers and no small amount of cursing to remove it.

Note to self: do not tell an elderly person "don't worry, you can't plug it in wrong, the plugs will only fit in the right sockets".

I assume you meant type B, not type A, but anyway, lol. I had a somewhat similar "bad advice that always used to work" experience recently with someone, except this case was a proprietary USB-to-10P10C cable for APC UPS control, and they thought it was a USB/Ethernet adapter. Of course 10P10C and 8P8C modular connectors are exactly the same size and shape.

Nope, type A. Both connectors were damaged beyond repair. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it myself - that woman must have the grip strength of an enraged gorilla.

Long time ago I jammed headphones minijack into USB-A of tower case computer - you know, one with ports so low just above the floor. There was a spark and the computer powered off instantly. Thanks goodness it powered on fine and the USB port was still working fine. To this day I hate audio ports next to USB-A in some laptops.

The RJ-45 socket on my MacBook was right next to a USB-A socket. I once inserted the USB into that Ethernet port, no jamming, and doscovered that indeed they are almost exactly the same width.

It wasn't stuck in there. Hmm.

I've actually seen someone plug in a DB 25 upside down! Every pin in the male connector was bent and the metal hood which mated with the socket was flared out.

Broken mini USB connectors are a pet peeve of mine. I literaly threw away my last three phones for the single reason the mini USB port wouldn't hold on to any cable anymore.

This doesn't bother most other people, but I like to use my phone for longer than 2-3 years. I really don't see the point in buying a marginally faster phone every other year. It's wasteful for the environment and costs a lot of money.

Mini or micro? I don't remember phones with mini-USB ports.

Some early Windows Mobile-powered HTC devices did.

My original Motorola Razr had a mini USB port.

Micro-USB was only introduced in 2007, and was uncommon before 2010 or so. Before it was available, most phones either used mini-USB or proprietary connectors.

HTC Hero and many other phones from that era had a mini-USB port.

A fair amount of phones the charging port as a modular component or on a replaceable charging board. Makes fixing this issue cheap/easy

Are you sure that's the connector you mean? Most phones started using micro-USB around 2010.

I've found that often it's pocket fluff at the bottom of the connector on phones. I've used a needle (something made of plastic would be better) to get rid of it and the connector then can hold the cable in place.

Oh, wow! Thank you so much. I was about to take my phone for repairs because of what I thought to be a flaky micro-USB port.

you had 3 mini USB phones?

I'm not sure how you would use them for 2-3 years even if the charger was still good, my phones' batteries have always become too low capacity and unpredictable at the one year mark and I don't see replaceable batteries anymore.

I've heard this many times. I have never had a mini USB plug or cable fail. I've had a couple micros fail on me in cheap devices.

The future I fear is far worse, my current phone, OnePlus 5t has the second failed USB-C port, my previous being a Google Pixel. USB-C cables connections in my experience become weak after maybe 50-100 uses.

I never had a single problem with a long line of micro phones.

I've had a Nexus 6p going on 4 years. Used the same cable the whole time. Maybe you're using cheap cables?

I was involved in discussions and part of the decision loop. Then a very big and leading mobile phone maker asked for it, even designed most part with a leading connector maker. USB IF eventually bite the bullet and accepted. Probably 2B+ of these connectors are shipped to date.

Frank's answer, given in 2011, seemed most interesting to me. Scroll a little further and he names Nokia as the driving force.

USB-C has its issues, but it is clearly better than any previous connector.

It’s not - I had the new MBP and every day had issues with USB-C devices coming loose and losing connections. A connector that comes disconnected with the smallest movement is not that good.

Agreed. USB c is unreliable in that just a small movement is enough for it to disconnect while appearing to be plugged in.

Didja get lint in there? I'm incredibly impressed with the USB-based products I've dealt with.

I have an HP notebook and the USB C connector does seem to wiggle itself loose throughout the day.

Maybe I've just been lucky - my phone had difficulty for a brief period about a year ago, and I'd gotten worried the port was failing but pulling out the lint has the connection like new now.

That's been the problem for me. I couldn't use my Pixel 3's USB-C port for charging or data anymore, until yesterday I finally dug out a shocking amount of pocket lint. Compressed air and a vacuum didn't do it. And it's hard to find a tool that will fit in there. My toothpicks were too thick. The end of a zip tie (as suggested on some reddit thread) works well for the long section but not the ends. It's probably not advisable, but in the end I used a safety pin.

I use a small slice of rigid, clear plastic packaging that you usually discard. It's probably less than a half a millimeter thick.

That's a good idea.

Sewing needle.

I shaved the tip of a toothpick with a knife and that worked fine.

It’s not lint - I have used compressed air and needles to clean it out.

One of the big problems with USB-C is that both sides of the connector can get filled with lint. The good news is that it is pretty easy to clean out, just take a needle or safety pin and scrape out the lint. It will be extremely compacted from you trying to push the cable in all the way over and over, but if you keep scraping I will bet you pull surprisingly large lint chunks.

my iphone wasn't charging properly. I just did what you recommended and now it works well. There was a lot compressed dust indeed. Thank you!

They went the other direction for the 2018 model - my work MBP has a death grip on my non-Apple USB-C cables and I have to use excessive force to remove them.

Same, but with Apple-branded cables. I fear I'm going to damage them every time I take one out. They're near-permanent once connected.

[EDIT] all Apple-branded because when I've needed one locally stores around here still don't really stock non-Apple USB-C cables. Some A-to-C for Android phones, maybe. That's about it. Shelf after shelf of various cheap Micro-USB cables and chargers, though. I really wish they'd left an A port or two on these things.

I have a sample size of 1 for Apple branded usb-c cables which is the one my Mac was supplied with, so I assume that was tested with the Mac, hence why I only have this problem with non-Apple cables. And indeed, the apple cable is loose in my other devices, though not as dramatically as their cables are tight in the mac.

USB-C is better. I love using USB-C. But the ecosystem is so poor right now. Maybe it is the available chipsets people are using but the hubs are awful. Lack of devices using C is pretty apparent as well.

I'm not sure what devices you have now, but I've moved completely to usb-c and love it. I threw out all my other cables, and have usb-c charging on every floor of my house and car.

I have my macbook pro and Pixel 3 as my main devices. For travel I have the Sony 1000mx3 headphones, Aiwejay toothbrush, Xiaomi shaver, the Innergie 60W charger (way way smaller than the Macbook brick). And at home I have the A7iii camera and Sandisk external ssd. I even have some bonus devices like the Daydream remote is usb-c and my Logitech Brio webcam.

There's a couple of things I'm still shopping for (dashcam, presentation remote, flashlight, studio microphone, and 4-input audio interface) but those will happen over the next year I imagine.

Can we have a roundup of worst-ever computer connectors? I'll open with the stupefyingly bad SCSI VHDCI connector, which was a teensy little thing with a couple of tiny screws usually attached to a gigantic cable that weighed at least a kilogram. These things never worked right without extra mechanical supports.

Ethernet "thicknet" AUI has to be the worst. Aside from being difficult to insert, it had a shit flimsy metal slider to hold it in place. I fixed a countless number of tickets of disconnected AUI connections in my career.

10BASE2/thinnet and coax/BNC was a godsend when it arrived. Mercifully followed by the current RG45 cables.

It's at least encouraging that the powers-that-be improved it over time.

Somewhat off, though, because the more complicated VGA connections, at the time, had almost zero issues. So we knew and understood the problem space, and just ignored the right solution.

The clip was bad, but some equipment came with screws instead. I wonder what the deal was with the clip. It certainly wasn't the only connector with clips. There was some SCSI generations with spring clips and the later, smaller VESA DFP had them.

I remember that as well. Whoever the clip proponent was should have served some appropriate penance :)

Also, "vampire taps", WTF????[1] That was a hot mess.

[1] Sad memories of coiling AUI cables and inserting properly spaced AUI vampire taps because MGMT wouldn't splurge for a proper ethernet switch.

The micro SCSI clips worked well.

Or the best connectors? Shout out to LEMO 0B. Love those things. They recently launched connectors with cool LED halos as well [1] - totally useless mechanically, but looks awesome.

[1] https://www.lemo.com/en/products/new-connectors/halo-led-con...

My new HP laptop has an RJ45 Ethernet socket where the key side is spring and hinged. It's basically to allow the laptop to be slimmer. I'm a network engineer so often have a need to connect to random patch cables. Half of the plugs don't readily come out when depressing their tongue and i have had to coax them out with a improvised tool.

To a degree, I can forgive the use of slim ethernet ports. Now that dual-band wifi and widely compatible (USB-C) docking stations are common, it's not essential to have one at all, for the majority of users

"had to coax them out"

I see what you did there...

No such thing as one standard Mini USB. I worked at PC parts&accessories supplier pre 2007 and we carried something like 5 proprietary variants of mini USB.

The only way to match "mini" USB was to ask for particular brand or make client bring the device with him. 5-pin, 4-pin, 8pin Nikon, 4pin Sony, etc. It was a mess.

I suppose that partially explains the historical revisions of this spec[1] circa 2006, including new IP agreement and criteria for "mini" products.

[1] https://usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf

Slightly OT: why did it take so many iterations to get to USB-C?

There's probably something like moores law for consumer device attachment pin density...

As I understand it, USB-C is considerably more complex than the first few iterations. The goal of the first few iterations was to become a standard cable and connector, and for that it needed to be simple, to lower the cost of implementation and have a good chance of widespread adoption.

"Considerably more complex" is probably underselling it. A fully capable port has a withering array of signaling standards to support, as well as supporting very high data transfer rates. It's a seriously challenging port to implement. Not something where you can buy a $2 chip and support a dozen ports like USB2.

Even setting aside the electronics, the physical socket is an order of magnitude more expensive. A lot of budget phones still use MicroUSB purely for cost reasons, because that $1 of BoM cost can be better used elsewhere.

Gamer's Nexus Youtube channel recently did a tour of Shenzen and produced an amazing "How it's Made" series on the components making up the majority of a modern gaming PC. One such video covers USB-C cables, here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1Tmtd51clI

Titled: Why USB3 Type-C Isn’t on More Cases | How Cables Are Made Factory Tour

In brief - the cables are way more complicated, with many very thin cores. To the point they require manual labour from people in a lot of spots where simpler cables can be automated. Therefore slow to produce and expensive!

Whole series is well worth a watch. The playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD5U3JZNVuk&list=PLsuVSmND84...

Wow, one step of the process takes 10 minutes per cable. That's insane.

USB-C is way more complicated. It's not a passive cable like the others, it has a small chip in at least one side (sometimes both), that is used to define the specs of the cable.

Only the faster cables need a chip. A basic cable needs only a couple of resistors.

Slightly more OT: why is USB-C adoption so slow?

Sure, your non-Apple smartphone or tablet almost certainly uses it, and maybe your laptop, but anything else? Virtually any other random device that uses a small USB port is far more likely to be micro-B than it is to be C even though C has been common on smartphones for years.

I think it's already insanely fast. If I remember right, it came out a little after USB-3 and it's already has comparable adoption. Of course, it's not going to go as fast as USB-3 since USB-C doesn't use backwards compatible hardware. With regards to random devices that are not USB hosts, it's still preferable to use USB-2 for greatest compatibility unless extra speed is needed like on external storage drives.

The connector is the primary reason I'm eager for wider adoption. The C connector is significantly more robust and doesn't require three attempts to plug in.

It certainly makes sense that such a hardware change slows things down a bit, but USB-C phones have been on the market since 2015 and pretty much standard since not long after that. If I want a USB-C powerbank or flash drive, I pretty much have to buy it online and I'll likely pay a premium for it. If some newly-introduced device in 2019 uses a USB connector to charge its integrated battery (a misfeature in itself if you ask me), it's almost never USB-C.

In short, I don't expect existing product lines to get revised, I expected to see USB-C show up faster on new products that aren't phones or tablets.

> If some newly-introduced device in 2019 uses a USB connector to charge its integrated battery (a misfeature in itself if you ask me), it's almost never USB-C.

Because there's a much smaller market of people that have enough USB-C hosts so that they're able to make full use of such devices. I, for one, don't have a single device with USB-C. In fact, only my company laptop has USB-3; everything else is USB-2. I don't think I'm an outlier on this.

> but USB-C phones have been on the market since 2015 and pretty much standard since not long after that.

On new models, yes, but for many it makes more financial sense to buy phones 2 or 3 generations back to avoid the premiums of having "the latest and greatest", and those are still microUSB. For example, the latest Motorola phone in the G-family is the G7, and the G5 is microUSB. So, there's still a lot of people buying phones with microUSB.

You don't need new hardware for a USB A-to-C cable to be more convenient than a USB A-to-micro-B cable. Almost any scenario benefits from the improved connector.

But there's a cost to switch of being in adapter hell until the market catches up. I'm in that situation, with a USB-C phone, but various micro-B devices I can't find C replacements for.

I think adoption has been pretty decent actually. My Sony headphones charge via USB-C - that's pretty good to me!

In part because it is much more complicated, in part because until USB 3.0 which wasn't really needed: micro USB was fine, however after USB 3.0 we got horrible hacks like this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/US...

I'm surprised more people didn't complain about the Galaxy S5 charging port, which not only had one of those monstrosities, meaning you have to plug in a standard micro-usb connector into only one specific half (less even) of the whole plug, but it had a door on it that you had to open first.

> The micro-USB connector was designed with these past failings in mind and has a rated lifetime of about 10,000 insertion cycles

I find it hard to believe that. Micro-USB in my experience has been the most unreliable cable type I've ever had. Doesn't matter if it's an expensive one that came with your premium phone or a chinese one from alibaba - something breaks with then within a year of casual use.

It’s the socket that’s rated, not the cable.

I can only speak from personal experience, but Mini-B female connectors had a truly incredible propensity for breaking loose off the board they were soldered to, and the male connectors bent inward at the slightest pressure.

Granted type-C isn't much better in the latter regard, I've thrown out multiple cables after finding they somehow got squished flat.

Apple isn't always that kind of company, but would lightning have been a mechanically simpler cable than USB-C? (I mean, wouldn't have given up the market and patent dominance in the interests of an industry wide non-discriminatory standard. They did some things as sensible cross patents but I don't think they always do)

How likely is it to accidentally rip off the inner part of sockets?

It happens, I know that from personal experience. But how does compare with the wear during normal use?

Type C and Lightning nearly look like plug & socket components. I understand type C moved the springs to the plug. But how often do people rip out the socket?

Scroll down past the accepted answer and you see what is likely the real one. A manufacturer came to the standardization board with a new design, asked for it, probably lobbied them for it greatly, and they eventually accepted it. Reasons for why the manufacturer wanted this aren't stated, I'm sure its a mix of engineering ideas, wishes, dreams and some mix of gaining an upper-hand in whatever market was there at the time.

Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/

I have an alternate theory, based on something the comments over there reminded me of:

Back in the mini-usb era, most of my family bought Razr phones. All of them broke in various ways in under a year (one actually snapped in half), because they weren't very careful about handling the phones. Nowadays, new phones last several years and are usually upgraded instead of needing replacement after breaking.

For most of my family, those phones were the first small electronics they had that they kept on them. But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones.

I think mini-usb was deemed fragile compared to micro-usb because a significantly larger proportion of the population didn't know how to handle them, and the manufacturers/etc identified the wrong problem.

> But my dad had a Blackberry before that, and I had a GBA - we never had issues breaking our "fragile" phones.

I think this is a really interesting point. I see so many people complain about "fragile" smartphones, and whose phones always seem to have a cracked screen.

Really it just comes down to taking care of your things, and treating expensive electronics like expensive electronics.

Most expensive electronics are actually much more durable than smartphones, and you usually not taking them with you wherever you go. I can handle ceramics and crystal glasses just fine, but I don't take them with me when I go hiking.

I honestly can't think of any complex electronics I own that are more durable than my iPhone. Nothing else is waterproof, for starters. And the phone has survived some pretty gnarly drops and falls.

My Lenovo X1 yoga is way more durable than my phone. My kindle reader is too. The multimedia head unit in my car is rock solid compared to my phone. My keyboard, desktop PC, printer and scanner and screen are all more durable than my phone.

perhaps many of those are less water resistant than the phone, but the most common failure point I see in smartphones is their screen glass, and the second is the stupid glass in the back, where applicable.

Not long ago I consulted restaurant reviews in front of a restaurant on my then new phone. Country side, Italy. A big insect landed on my hand and instinctively I dropped the phone on the pavement. The degree of damage that incident left on the device is way beyond what is acceptable for common usage of any other commonly used object. Even my sunglasses are more durable.

> My Lenovo X1 yoga is way more durable than my phone. My kindle reader is too.

Neither of them are water proof, so how does that work?

You are not prone to drop either a notebook or a kindle reader in the toilet.... Maybe just how the things are carried leads to a greater level of exposure to a dunking.

The most likely problem is surviving a fall. Water damage is the least of your worries.

The latest kindle is actually waterproof.

Your desktop and monitor would better survive being dropped on the pavement than your phone?

he never mentioned a desktop. Shifting goalposts?

Er,

> My keyboard, desktop PC, printer and scanner and screen are all more durable than my phone.

Perhaps, but even if not, they are very unlikely to hit the pavement. The gp argument was that people don't know how to care for expensive electronic devices and that's why they brake their phones.

My argument is that most people can handle other expensive electronic devices just fine, it's just that smartphones are not durable enough for their intended use.

Note that iPhone is water resistant, not waterproof.

Yes. Found this out the hard way, which was rather stupid of me. Funnily enough it was because someone else ‘demonstrated’ waterproof by throwing me their phone when I was in a pool, and taking underwater photos with it. Then I was amazed and did the same. <1m water, <5 mins... guess my seals weren’t as good as theirs. Thank god for AppleCare

The Samsung Galaxy series has a higher water resistance rating than iPhones. SP 68 vs 67.

> I own

After having two phones fail due to the mini connector I switched to only wireless charging and I love it.

I understand the charging performance hit, but that's much more easily mitigated than sketchy cords/ports.

A lot of my old devices have mini connectors, they work, as does micro. I think when the original iphone was released they just wanted something thinner, anticipating future thin smart phones.

My phones' micro-b ports pretty much become worn out in 1 year 10 months +/- every time. I hate to imagine how much worse it'd be.

Mini's still on my TI-84+ and I can only speak anecdotally but I've never had a single cable die or have a socket go loose. I plugged and unplugged it probably ten times a day last year for six months so I could work on making my first calculator game.

I go through a micro-USB cable once a month. I buy them in bulk. I hate the standard with a passion. I don't like thin devices- if they could make thicker phones that have mini I'd buy them instead.

Micro sockets get full with dust too and are really hard to clean. My last two phones usb sockets died on me.

I got this feeling the mini is more robust. It got way better metal support for the plug.

Edit: Couldnt remember which is which.

If you replace Mini USB with Micro USB and replace Micro USB with USB C, most of the answer still makes sense.

Reminder that Apple designed the USB-C connector, which is why it's so friggin' user friendly!

Got a source on that? I'm genuinely interested to hear about it.

Yep! Here's one - it's light on specifics but the gist is that Apple was heavily influential on the actual connector design, not anything related to spec/bus etc.

https://9to5mac.com/2015/03/14/apple-invent-usb-type-c/

I'd personally say it's a bit gratuitous to say that Apple designed the connector, but their contribution was clearly significant, even if the politics of the matter mean that we'll never truly know if Apple spearheaded the design or made any significant demands.

Still, an interesting bit of history!

Agreed. I wish we had more details. A hint of apple's touch is simply the radius of the connector metal - it's very elegant.

I mean, the radius is half the thickness of the connector - it couldn't really be anything else.

It could be squared off, or some weird shape, the way mini and micro USB were.

And also that the shells are typically deep-drawn (and therefore seamless) rather than folded.

Maybe, but it’s definitely worse than lightning when it comes to retention. Usb-c comes loose with very little force.

I find that a good feature to have.

Much better than dropping my phone or headphones to the floor as it happens with the micro-USB cables.

So in the time frame that Apple has switched connector once for the iPhone, there has been at least 3 versions of small USB connectors (Not counting the larger types here that are at least 2).

Usually Apple is the one scolded "for switching connectors every few years to suck out more money" How come?

The real longevity plan for plugs is not X,000 cycles, but “Will it work until I lose it?”

Depends on your use case I guess? I've never lost a micro usb cable but at this stage I've had tens of them fail on me.

A lot of words to say the obvious answer: micro is smaller, and phones are thinner now.

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