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Comment by ilaksh | Hacker News Reader

The clauses I have seen attempt to claim all intellectual work regardless of when it was done or whether it was related to the job.

To me, this is an indication that we truly have not progressed beyond wage slavery. I believe such clauses should be illegal.

I think one thing we might be able to do is to create a list of companies that have blanket clauses like this and then some people (not most) will have the luxury of boycotting them. I see this as a human rights issue actually. It is an attempt to trap an individual indefinitely in a labor mode.

And yes, it's extremely common and a standard legal practice. So was outright slavery for many thousands of years. However, attempting to claim unrelated work outside of office hours is a violation of natural rights.

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I'm kind of mind-blown reading this thread. Right now I'm working on a product of my own, and I'm currently employed. The product has absolutely-zero-nada-nothing to do with what my company does, I do it on my own time, with my own money, with my own machine.

Are you saying that I still may not be legally in the clear? If so, that is incredibly insane, and I can't believe clauses like that actually exist.

Not sure how I made it this far without knowing this was a thing, but goddamn that's infuriating.

edit: brb gonna go sift through all the shit I signed when I joined

Even if you are legally in the clear, your company’s lawyers could still try to fight for it anyways.

Make sure you Never use company resources, and next time, consider getting a copyright assignment exemption before beginning work.

The reality is that it probably isn’t really likely all companies are out to steal your personal work through dubious copyright assignment agreements, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be super aggressive.

Not a lawyer but I would probably just keep all side projects on the down low, don't draw attention by asking for a copyright assignment exemption, don't develop it at work or even log in via a company pc or phone. Don't mention it to co-workers. Keep your name off of it on the public side. Keep it anonymous. I expect you could even use a 'pen name' if you wanted to, if you need to be visible, do podcasts, etc.

Most of your side projects aren't going to amount to anything anyway but if you keep it anonymous the chances of your company approaching you about it after you leave are very small. Even if it turns in to a success.

Read your employment contract, see if it contains this Sex Tape Clause

> The product has absolutely-zero-nada-nothing to do with what my company does

Be careful about declaring your side project unrelated to work. Your definition of unrelated might not match your company’s definition.

If you are programming for your company, and programming for your side project, they’re related at that level at least. I realize they might still be 100% orthogonal, but your employer and the law don’t usually see things the same way you do.

For my last two jobs, I had a side-project before I interviewed, and when it came time to decide on their offer, I had a lawyer write an exclusion for my side-project, legally declaring it unrelated to the company’s business and legally allowing me to moonlight. Getting the lawyer to write it up seemed expensive before I did it, and then seemed like it was both inexpensive and invaluable insurance after I did it. Both companies signed and gave me offers. Asking for the exclusion didn’t seem to hurt my prospects.

On the positive good-news side, you probably are legally in the clear. And also, most companies don’t initiate legal action against employees with side projects. In the few cases I know about where legal action happened, there was more to the story and/or the side project was clearly related to the company’s business.

>Are you saying that I still may not be legally in the clear?

You're not necessarily guilty of anything per se, but if your company decides to sue you, they have that right.

It's standard practice to include this in employment contracts as protection, but it'll be up to the court to decide if what you worked on actually falls under the umbrella of your employer's IP. In practice, the company can't blanket tell you you can't work on anything, ever.

If you are in California you should be fine; of course there is a good chance you aren't so good luck.

https://www.employmentrightscalifornia.com/can-my-california...

One thing I would mention is to check your state/city/province/country laws etc. I am not 100% certain but I remember reading in California such clauses aren’t allowed so you can do whatever you like in your own time or something. Double check though.

It'd probably be easier to create a list of companies without

That’s what I think.

I have mainly worked at non-profits (gov, inc, edu), and even these own all your work.

The only way is to develop your idea, which has to be unrelated enough to your work, at a different location, on you own time, with your own money.

> The only way is to develop your idea, which has to be unrelated enough to your work, at a different location, on you own time, with your own money.

To be clear, many (if not most) of the IP clauses discussed here would still claim to own your personal IP produced while employed EVEN given all those conditions.

As an aside, workers in California have much better protections from this kind of IP overreach by employers, and abiding by the conditions you mention will protect you there, but not necessarily elsewhere. Also, and this really grates me, employers in California will still often include a total IP ownership clause, even though it's nullified by the state law, for reasons I can't fathom - to scare you into not developing your own IP off the clock? Or just in case the law changes? I find it very distasteful.

I agree fully. The absurdism only becomes visible to some if you were to turn it around. Retroactively disqualify code at previous jobs, because you garnered the skill at a different location on your own time with your own money. suddenly its ridiculous.

In my personal experience of 20 years, these clauses are meaningless. I know several people who not only left companies and started their own businesses but also became competitor to their former employers. No one ever got in trouble. In fact, a famous Magento shop in DFW area was started this way.

Well there is one lady who got sued because she took her clients with her to a new firm. Didn't start a new company though.

But I have noticed that non-doers love to use this as an excuse to do nothing. In every happy hour/lunch, there is at least one person talking about a great idea but they not gonna do it because their evil employer made them sign bunch of documents. You tell these documents hold a little weight in court and they should go talk to a lawyer, they might agree but never will talk to a lawyer. Next happy hour they are complaining about same thing.

And if you tell them about your side business, they will do their best to scare you.

I work for major tech giant, and openly advertise my business on LinkedIn, resume, carry business cards. No issues so far. I don't talk about it at work or with non-doers.

In California, such clauses are in-fact illegal.

Utah and other states have laws that specifically state anything you create on you own time with your own equipment that is unrelated to your employer is yours, regardless of what any contract says. Unfortunately, there's plenty of room for ambiguity around what "unrelated" means.

Not as good as California's law, but still something.

See section 1, about half way down the first page: https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title34/Chapter39/C34-39_180001011...

Check your own state's laws.

You are right in the sense that California and few other state have regulations around this. And so far, I have seen not one employee agreement in violation of those laws.

On the other hand, the devil is in the details. You may not be safe still because of these regulations in California.

Meh, if your job is to regularly create IP, it becomes difficult to prove what you came up with at home vs at work. And really it doesn't matter because you are usually paid a handsome sum for your inventiveness. I can understand such clauses as I change my risky situation of not coming up with anything of value and not having money for a steady wage but no chance at extreme richness. I am always free to stop working at my employer and try to score golden patents on my own...

I don't think the vast majority of programmers are paid to generate tons of IP.

More importantly, we're almost always only paid to generate IP in a single domain. So if I go home and generate IP for a totally different domain, there's no reason why my employer should have any claim to it.

But many companies will have it in your contract that they own it, regardless of relevance to the company.

You can put anything in a contract or legal document. Doesn’t mean that it’s enforceable or can be upheld in a court of law.

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