If we were able to run without JavaScript and have basic use of websites again then these attack vectors wouldn’t be so scary.
Maybe it’s a personal failing of mine; but I don’t understand why people don’t consider JavaScript untrusted code when other vectors of running software on my machine come from a gpg-signed chain of custody.
Sure, passive content such as nytimes.com can work without JS (although some of their interactive articles would not), but anything more complicated will often be done with client side rendering these days.
Not true, latency scales with CPU capacity on the client. SPAs now exist with client side rendering to mask the bloat in the site plus its dependencies.
If you have a SPA arch but you did a page load per click, you would die. But all sites creep up to 500ms page load times regardless of their starting stack and timings.
Speaking from about a decade of experience with progressive enhancement and all the other things. It is 'much' more. There is an expectation of equivalent functionality/experience in these cases, and you just can't spread your resources that thin to get half a product out that works without Javascript. You're literally development a completely independant application that has to sit on top of another application. Everything comes out 'worse'
These days we invest in ARIAA and proper accessibility integration and if you run without Javascript that is going to get you next to nothing in a 'rich' web application.
Interpreting the code instead should completely kill any chance of exploits of this class. It will also completely kill the performance though. Even tor dropped that idea https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/21011
But later on, Firefox has streamlined its architecture and made it more difficult to disable JIT. After one update, disabling JIT causes a broken build that crashes instantly. I've spend a lot of time reading bug trackers and looking for patches to unbreak it. The internal refactoring continued, after Firefox Quantum, JIT seems to be an integral part of Firefox, and the Gentoo maintainers eventually dropped the option to disable JIT as well.
I wonder if an ACL-based approach could be used, as an extension to NoScript. The most trusted website has JavaScript w/o JIT, the less trusted website has JavaScript w/o JIT, the least trusted website has no JavaScript. Tor Browser's security lever used to disable JIT at the "Medium" position. But rethinkig it, this approach has little security benefit, it's easy to launch a watering hole attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watering_hole_attack) and eject malicious JavaScript from 3rd-party elements.
I wonder if extending seccomp() and prctl() based approach can be a solution. SMT can be enabled but no process is running on a SMT thread by default. Non-confidential applications such as scientific computing or video games can tell the kernel to put their processes on SMT threads.
A valid option, though in general I'd rather allow it for everything except browsers.
So instead of trying to achieve the impossible (perfect safe code that still has unlimited access) the direction is stricter sandboxes. Then at least you only need one near perfect piece of safe code (the sandbox) instead of tens of thousands.
Instead, the only way of having a performant, secure system today is to disable hardware mitigations and ensure you only run trusted software, the opposite of your proposal. The sandbox still helps for other issues (e.g. buffer overflows).
I think that ship has sailed..
We should work to build secure sandboxes instead.
Also, to keep this all in perspective, we are talking about one company that made egregious engineering decisions to maintain their market leadership which has put their customers at risk. To say we should do away with JS in the browser because Intel made some really poor decisions to undermine their competition is just crazy. As far as I'm concerned, this is typical Intel and they are getting what they deserve yet again. I just feel bad for their customers that have to deal with this.
Fixed it for you, the current list I have is AMD, ARM, Freescale/NXP, IBM both POWER and mainframe/Z, Intel, MIPS, Oracle SPARC, and maybe old Fujitsu/HAL SPARC designs for Spectre, with at least four of those CPU lines also subject to Meltdown.
Given that AMD is fully vulnerable to Spectre, there's absolutely no reason to believe it isn't similarly vulnerable to microarchitectural detail leakage if people were to look. And going back to what I was replying to:
> we are talking about one company that made egregious engineering decisions to maintain their market leadership which has put their customers at risk
We demonstrably aren't, seeing as how ARM, and IBM, both POWER and mainframe/Z CPUs are also vulnerable to Meltdown. That and the significant prevalence of Spectre says this is not "typical Intel" but "typical industry", a blind spot confirmed in 7 different companies, and 8 teams to the extent the IBM lines are done by different people.
The "Intel is uniquely evil" trope simply doesn't hold water.
That said, in the consumer space, being (this) vulnerable to Javascript attacks is catastrophic. My original point is that we should not be crippling something very useful (javascript in the browser) because of flawed architectures that mostly affect one company in a way that decimates performance.
Lots of us have a different opinion on the usefulness vs. risk of running random and often deliberately hostile JavaScript in your browser, see the the popularity of NoScript, and how many of us use uMatrix with JavaScript turned off by default. Most of the time I follow a link where I don't see anything, I just delete the tab, most of those pages aren't likely worth it.
"Mostly affect one company" is something completely unproven, since AMD is not getting subjected to the same degree of scrutiny, AMD has a minuscule and for some reason declining in 19Q1 market share for servers, while desktop and laptops are modest but showing healthy market share growth: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/291032-amd-gains-marke...
While ARM is announcing architecture specific flaws beyond basic Spectre: Meltdown (CVE-2017-5754) and Rogue System Register Read (CVE-2018-3640, in the Spectre-NG batch but by definition system specific): https://developer.arm.com/support/arm-security-updates/specu...
This may be popular among neckbeards, but regular people could care less. Regular people care about being tracked and that's about it.
> "Mostly affect one company" is something completely unproven
You speak like a person of authority on this subject, but AMD has come out and said they are specifically immune to these threats: https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/product-security
AMD has "hardware protection checks in our architecture" which disputes your assertion that AMD just isn't a targeted platform. The reality is any computing platform can be vulnerable to undiscovered vulnerabilities so making that point is kind of pointless.
Also, disabling JS on the browser pretty much completely eliminates e-commerce on the web. Again, I can't fathom the masses seeing any benefit in this.