H-1B visa: Government says work ban for H-4 spouses coming this month
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The H-4 expansion Obama did, just like his DACA expansion, was illegal, as the Fifth Circuit has already established. The Trump administration is simply following the law by withdrawing the illegal expansion that the DHS lacked legal authority to do. The H-4 specific lawsuit from Save Jobs USA is using the same principle from the Fifth Circuit decision.
The legal way to have done H-4 or DACA was with appropriate legislation during the time the Democrats held the Presidency, the House, and a filibuster-proof Senate majority... yet they chose to do absolutely no changes in immigration law (DACA or other amnesty, H-4 or other expansion). In fact, Senator Schumer railed against amnesty himself in multiple floor speeches. Now, ask yourself why that is.
1. There is plenty of distinction from the Fifth Circuit decision - for example DAPA and expanded DACA deal with folks present in the country illegally, while H-4 spouses have legal status. Another distinction is that the H-4 work authorization is interstitial - it only applies to those with an approved green card petition, and bridges the gap until the green card is received. That does not apply to DAPA.
2. That Fifth Circuit case was never decided on its merits - it just upheld a preliminary injunction from the district court.
That Fifth Circuit case was never decided on its merits - it just upheld a preliminary injunction from the district court.
Are you saying that when one ascends to party leader, s/he becomes exempt from having hypocrisy of longstanding past positions pointed out?
Multiplying the odds by 2 (making your chance 2/4) lets you use this analogy: If you had a bag with 2 marbles labeled 1, along with and one 2 and one 3 marble, your chance of drawing either a 2 or a 3 is the same as drawing the 1 marble. This still works if you add more marbles to the mix, as long as they're weighted to be pulled twice as often as the 2 or 3 marble.
Yes, I understand the problems that limitless free movement might create but it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people who say that want meritocracy to discuss only the implementation details of the visa system in the context of exceptions(i.e. you cannot work in this country except if you personally meet the following criteria).
Why not create a system that is fair at the core, something like "your passport countries' democracy score, worker rights, environmental protection standards and human rights need to be in the same range as the country you want to work at". The visa-free travel and visa-free working right essentially boil down to this anyway, why not remove all the exceptions and let people optimize their countries towards these metrics if they want to work in some other country?
In the current form, immigration is painful for the immigrants and doesn't do any good for the countries that send those immigrants.
What ever gave you the impression that the "America #1" crowd was either of those things?
They are populist probably because these opinions are popular.
I think there is a strand in their argument that being American is a merit in itself, but this isn't usually stated explicitly except in forms like "Americans for American Jobs".
I'm not arguing this makes any logical sense though - it doesn't.
If being an American is a merit, then companies could choose to hire based on this merit.
I'm just trying to understand that way of thinking. Maybe they think it's a merit but are insecure about it and demand recognition for because their experience shows that companies do not value this merit enough?
Normally, people who are not familiar with the problems of borders, the arbitrariness of them, who grew up in a culture that never experienced a downsizing country, a war in their country, stories about how political persecution and/or absolutely bleak prospects drove hundreds of thousands (or millions) of their fellow countrymen away are not going to be very understanding of these problems. On the other hand they will understand that their life is not going as well as they would like it. And they are caught by the meme net cast by whatever lucky political group. (And "blaming the victim" fused with "the outside enemy" is a pretty proven strategy for populists.)
And populists always advocate for more power to themselves to fix things. (Obviously, politics is about power, and populism is pretty much the shit tier direct marketing of politics.)
Hence the thinking of "america first", "make america great first", before we deal with whatever is outside our borders. This also implies that listen to "americans first", and then listen to any external criticism. (This is again always a pretty great strategy to consolidate power - a form of divide and conquer.) And naturally, this has the effect of basically diverting the attention away from global issues.
And since we're living in a global world for quite some time, without at least partially understanding global issues making sense of the local ones is a fool's errand. Because a thinking that tries to somehow understand everything locally inevitably runs into "outside powers caused this to us", and this feeds powerlessness. (It doesn't matter that the USA has and had a very significant factor in shaping that "outside world".)
No country is “sending” anyone. It’s an individual choice.
Some people decide to apply for H1B because it is advantageous to them, but a lot more decide to stay in their home country.
H1B is voluntary
[0] Sending is used quite often in this context, you can google it or look at its usage in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_by_country It's used together with "receiving" and it's used to indicate the origin of the immigrants.
So anyone who doesn't need to migrate then?
Think of it as if people from Texas moving to California, I'm sure it happens all the time. Often the right opportunity for you is not in the city, country or even continent you live in. Sometimes it's not the right culture for you and you want to a place with more liberal/conservative/christian/islamic/etc culture.
there is an actual definition for a refugee and its not "be desperate" . There are more than 500 million ppl deseperate to move to usa very few of them qualify to be refugee.
Wouldn't that exclude almost all of the current immigrants to USA. Chinese, Indians, mexicans, filipinos ect.
So make all kinds of discrimination a fair game?
As population density increases, it's only natural that countries want to reduce population. Between telling people to not have children and preventing immigrants from entering, politically it's more palatable to stop immigration.
How is that "fair at the core" when it penalizes individuals for factors they have no control over?
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2018/08/02/the-recen...
If you simply give up after a year or two, it's not counted, unless something has changed recently.
Thus the "participation rate" comment of the other reply.
Given that it takes the form of a monthly survey, I'd expect more people to actually remember having done so.
Now I could understand inferring employment via tax documents cross referenced with unemployment papers, but to my understanding that level of information sharing is not generally done.
Where do the statistics come from? Here's the answer from BLS's Current Population Survey FAQ at w.r.t. where the data comes from.
https://www.bls.gov/cps/faq.htm#Ques2
>Because unemployment insurance records relate only to people who have applied for such benefits, and since it is impractical to count every unemployed person each month, the government conducts a monthly survey called the Current Population Survey (CPS) to measure the extent of unemployment in the country. The CPS has been conducted in the United States every month since 1940, when it began as a Work Projects Administration program. In 1942, the U.S. Census Bureau took over responsibility for the CPS. The survey has been expanded and modified several times since then.
So what do the statistics being gathered actually represent and where do they come from? More digging required...
Ah, here it is. Survey methodology. ho!
https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/technical-docume...
I'm not super Survey methodology savvy, (more familiar with anti-patterns for it honestly, and figuring out when the Map starts diverging from the landscape), but in terms of what it is actually measuring, and how much divergence is introduced between reality and the convenient model inferred from the survey's statistical finger waggling... I leave that to the more Stats inclined among us. It seems an okay methodology, but it doesn't strike me in terms of being the most accurate measurement, merely getting enough data that someone feels that the divergences can be safely tucked under the rug.
I will say, the folks putting this together seem to have done a great job documenting it.
I wish my developers could be relied upon to do as such.
https://www.theroot.com/yes-trump-voters-will-stick-with-him...
It's not about doing the right thing for the economy, it's about pissing off/hurting 'the libruhls'.
No bias to see here folks. Move along.
Trump voters and conservatives rarely care about pissing off liberals. Remember the internet is a crazy place where those who shout the loudest get the most attention. The vast majority of people are relatively sane and aren't out to hurt anybody. I'd encourage you to have an honest conversation with a few Trump voters before making blanket accusations.
People seem to think that all Trump voters care about is the economy. In reality, most of the ones I've met care deeply about their families and their country. They tend to see left wing policies as a threat to their future and the future of their children.
I think one easy thing to do to ensure that small cos and rural areas still have access is to require all h1b hires to be level 4, the highest level. As it stands now more than 70% are hired at levels 1 and 2 (2018 data), which are essentially "below average" which is weird for a program aimed at bringing in those with hard to find skills.
H1B doesn't really have a job market test. You just need to justify it's a job that requires a bachelor's degree and pays whatever the DOL wage data says should be the prevailing wage for that classification. It's not that difficult to game the system by playing around with job level, title and location and getting away with the lowest possible pay. This is basically the business model of staffing agencies and contractors.
It's also being used by many genuine employers looking for talent and highly specialized skills. Cost isn't a concern here as their business model relies on making the best product.
> The H 1B also requires that the H-1B employer pay the H-1B employee the prevailing wage or the actual wage, whichever is higher.
And https://www.dol.gov/whd/h1bworkers.htm
> and you must be offered fringe benefits on the same basis as offered to U.S. employees.
But now that I read it again, they may be separate things that don't sum up. Is that what you meant?
There are much, much better ways to fix the issues with H-1B visas. The first and most important thing that needs to happen is no longer tying the visa to the employer. Once we make it so that people on H-1B can freely move around in the labor market during the course of their visa, they would automatically gain the ability to command higher wages, which would result in employers rely on foreign labor less (since it would be more expensive), and only hiring foreigners who are actually skilled and exceptional.
At least at 120k you know that the company involved really does value this employee to some extent. They're not likely to spend 120k on someone easily hired locally for far less.
I've found both experiences to be pretty common.
I'm not sure where you're going with it. The existence of outsourcing isn't something I thought we were confused about.
If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue.
It's meant for companies to bring some in if needed.
No, it's a program for employers.
> but is often abused to just bring in cheaper people.
That's what it is obviously designed for, within limits, and any contrary explanation requires hoping the person you selling it to doesn't understand the relation between supply, demand, and price.
> If they are really difficult spots to fill and important, them the pay should be no issue.
Pay is always an issue; importance just sets the exact level of pay at which it becomes not worth it to hire.
You might need to make a cultural shift. You'd need to show appreciation for housework. If you're in the habit of looking down on people who do that, or if she herself is, then things won't go well.
It is still strange to me. If she would do the laundry and cooking while you work, then the time you would have spent on those chores could be spent with her. You could go hiking, visit museums, play cards, take flying lessons, take scuba lessons, go dancing, etc.
It is necessary to have a minimum wage to make sure companies will priorities local talents. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" model sometimes create busy-work but I think that is a fair combination to wage floor.
I believe it is important to do everything to help integrate skilled workers to society. Make them feel they belong. They are more valuable assets if they stay. Of course it has to be in accordance with population and unemployment metrics.
There is this annoying double standard currently. If they invest and spend in the US we complain, and if they remittance to the home country again we complain. And now this work ban is like telling them mine and run because we don't want you here.
The US minority population is dramatically underrepresented in tech. Reduce the competition for entry level tech positions, and their numbers will grow.
But... if it does, how will it work? I did read the article but it wasnt clear if current h4 employees would be grandfathered? I work at a place with a few hundred h1b engineers and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles. If they arent grandfathered it'd be catastrophic for the company I work for, never mind places the size of FAANG companies.
Could they get their own H-1B visa in their own right like anyone else would? Why do they need to piggy back off their spouse’s visa?
Without extra Masters reservation, the odds of getting an H-1B are really low. (25%?), That's about 50% of the population on the H4 that would be unemployed for ~2 years.
What company will tentatively hire an employee until they get an H1B in what could be 3-4 years ?
Look at the data here: https://h1bdata.info/topcompanies.php
Don't be alarmed if you don't recognize a good portion of the top companies because they're Indian IT outsourcing/consulting companies that logjam the whole system.
There really isn't that big of a problem with H1Bs. It's a great way for companies to hire additional talent and to keep students that come here for graduate school inside the country where we subsidized their education.
I think we should focus on fixing the abuse first, then lets see where we stabilize, and then do further restrictions. It's too aggressive to curtail legitimate uses of H1B when it's clear that it's being so blatantly abused.
The truth is more complicated. Because these agencies have gamed the system, they effectively control some fraction of the labor market. To a degree, FAANG has to come to the agencies if they want engineers, no matter where on the experience / skill curve they land. I imagine there's also an element of reputation shielding as well -- people like yourself blame Tata instead of the companies that hire them, but the companies that hire them get cheaper labor that basically can't hop jobs. That has to be valuable, given the policies Steve Jobs shopped around for around no poaching.
The primary issue and ultimately the first step in solvency is still these companies abusing the system.
You can't very well stop companies from hiring other companies to solve their problems. I think that type of solution is probably impossibly hard to implement. Whereas if you simply stop these top few companies or create rules around who and how they apply, I think the problem is going to be greatly improved.
Like I said above. Lets push for solving the obvious problems first before applying pressure downstream.
The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" is a common international founder/key employee visa requirement. Maybe make it 10x payroll for citizen/pr vs. h-1b, but there should also be an "n jobs over $x/yr ratio" to prevent the single investor/owner having a $30mm/yr salary, and then 30 x $100k H-1B jobs)
Otherwise, I'm in favor of scrapping H-1B in favor of an explicitly loosened O-1 which largely meets the same purposes as above.
This right-to-work for H4s isn't the problem. Don't get me wrong: it sucks for those affected and it's arbitrarily capricious but it's not the problem.
Oh and BTW the US immigration system as a whole is arbitrarily capricious. This is some combination of "they're stealing our jobs" and an effort to discourage immigration in general, psychologically lumping those that sneak across the border with highly-skilled workers into the same bucket.
Some examples:
- If your green card is lost or stolen it costs $400 to replace it but, worse, it takes 8-12+ months at current queue times to get a replacement. The US government can get a US citizen a passport in a day if it needs to.
- Lose it while overseas and you're in for a world of hurt to re-enter the US (and then go through the above process to get it replaced).
- Your Labor Certification ("LC") can get audited. This sounds fine but it's really not. USCIS has a stated goal of not having applicants figure out their auditing criteria so they RANDOMLY audit a some applications. The total number of audited LCs is estimated to be ~30%.
- If your LC is audited, this just randomly adds 12-18+ months to your process depending on how many times USCIS can send you Requests for Evidence ("RFEs"). Yes this can happen more than once. Personally I know of one case where there were 3 separate RFEs for a FAANG engineer that added >2.5 years to the process.
- Green cards have quotas by country of birth. H1Bs do not. This, primarily, is the cause of the massive logjam particularly for India but, to a lesser extent, also for China, Mexico and the Phillipines (depending on the visa category).
- It is common for applications at various stages to get stuck where nothing happens for months for no real reason. This is so common that there is a procedure for dealing with it: writing to your local Senator or congressman and having their office file an inquiry with USCIS. Not everyone knows this but this tends to unstick things within a week. Why it gets stuck in the first place is a mystery.
- Once your case is assigned to a particular examiner, you're stuck with that examiner. They will process their applications on a FIFO basis and one examiner may be particularly slow compared to another for no readily apparent reason. Worse, different examiners will apply the same rule differently in that in a given situation one will ask for an additional form where another wouldn't. And yes that adds another 3-6 months to the process as your updated submission goes to the back of their queue.
- There are several time windows you need to be aware of. With sufficient delays some of your supporting documentation may be out of date. And bingo, that's another go around.
- Getting married on a green card won't really help your spouse at all. There are years long delays for sponsoring your spouse and they'll enjoy no relevant status before then. The general advice is you'll start this process and finish it probably after naturalization (which is a far quicker process).
So what is the core problem that needs to be fixed? Easy. The abuse of the system by Indian IT outsourcing companies. For these companies, the 10+ year delays in getting a green card for Indian-born people is a feature not a bug because that's longer they can keep them in what is not that far from indentured servitude.
These people aren't highly-skilled and aren't highly-paid. They're taking spots that could otherwise go to highly-skilled and highly-paid people at FAANG type companies.
Other commenters are right in that a simple minimum pay could have a lot of loopholes. Being "total compensation" with inflated values on "benefits" is just one way. Another is, say, overcharging for services that are described as optional but really aren't, like food or accomodation.
Want to see examples of how desperate people are trapped by these sorts of "fees" into essentially perpetual debt? Look no further than India's brick kilns [1].
[1] https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/
>The US is no longer seen as a plum posting by senior IT services employees (of Indian IT companies).
https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-serv...
>IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States (US) for part of its growing employee attrition and said that it would introduce a "new value proposition" to help retain employees.
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-e...
lol so funny. their main perk was chance to get h-1b visa and to blame us govt for not giving it to them.
One of the main ways these companies retain people was this: give the employee promise of onsite deputation if you work for 1-2 years in this project. Now the companies are forced to give them a decent raise or promotion or better projects.
It sucks for 2 people I know who had been working like that for the last 3-4 years. Their work day usually ends at midnight and sometimes 1 am-2am (instead of 6.45 pm). They stayed in that project because they thought one day they could go to US. Their employer applied for their visas, but got denied.
Yes, it is expensive, but aren't these H-1B people supposed to have rare and special skills that are worth a lot? All I have is a Bachelor's degree in Computer Science. If I can afford 11 kids on one income, surely these people with advanced degrees can afford more. At some point... how fertile can you be? One income should do.
Living the American Dream.
I think it would be possible for a non-beginner Facebook employee willing to live in a 3-bedroom. It's not something I've seriously considered.
I've grown to like Brevard county, FL. It's cheap and peaceful. Walking to work is often possible, and for driving there isn't much traffic. Out here it is a long commute if you drive more than 20 minutes. You'd do that if you wanted 5 acres of land or an affordable beachfront property.
The H4 work permission was basically a stopgap for Indian citizens who should have gotten green cards years ago but didn't because of processing backlogs.
The current administration plans to revoke it so its going through its procedures.
- Fact is everyone comes to the US to have a better economic life.
- Even asylum seekers, would want to move to the US over any other progressive European nation , because, American Dream, easy upwards mobility, diversity. This is a personal observation.
Let me shed some light on how it works for Indian people. You can extrapolate it to other entities too.
- Indian girls in general conveniently marry a US living
husband of their parents choice(not all but many), and
compete for the same jobs with kids who finished their
Masters Degrees here.
- H-1B visa system is fucked up. Infosys and Wipro and
TCS ship tons of their employees to the US.These people
work at a price less than the current market price.
- Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because, job market
is tight. Its bad for schools and kids too. Schools for those foreign dollars, for kids- its important to have
an exposure to outside world - this helps shape world view in a tremendously good way.
- These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers.
- From my observations, the reason I am biased in favouring kids coming here for
Masters is because, with in the time it takes to finish their education, and the
time it takes to find a job, they imbibe American culture. This may sound silly, but
it is very important. These people at some time will become citizens and will become
part of national discourse.
- Contractors shipped by Infosys and Wipro and TCS could never be part of that. It is
hardly possible. Again , its a personal observation.
- Someone who finishes his Masters in the United States is expected to find a job with in three months of his
OPT(Optional Practical Training) start date.
- Now these people are mostly by themselves and invested heavily for their education. No reason why these people
flock to so called 'consultancies'.
- Compare that to the spouses of existing H-1B visa holders, who never invested anything here. No cultural
investment, nor education. They have a security to live here for as long as their relatively smart husband is
allowed to live. With unlimited amount of time compared to some one with a Masters degree, they are at a
disproportionate advantage.
- People finishing Masters should be given precedence over H4 spouses and H-1B's(for reasons above) hired by
outsourcing companies.
- There is more to it than we know.For all the xenophobia, this administration is displaying there are times,
they are not wrong.US has lowest unemployment in decades. The tightness is on employers.
> These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers.
As solid economic thinking as saying US should ban all imports, since that takes jobs from americans
Sorry, I think , you misread my comment or rather may be I wasnt clear enough.
I meant kids don't want to come , if the job market is tight.
Another thing is H4 is not something unique to the Infosys crowd. The Infosys crowd usually gets sent back to India once their deputation is over, they don't even get a chance to apply for h4.
An h1b spouse gets h4 only after the h1b's employer files for their green card and they complete the i140 stage. Companies usually file this towards the end of 6 years so that the h1bs are forced to continue with their employer for as long as possible. So the spouses would be waiting doing absolutely nothing during that period. Compared to those working in American consultancies, the Infosys crowd rarely gets a chance to stay in US for that long. So majority of h4 beneficiaries are not working for the likes of Infosys.
>Now these people are mostly by themselves and invested heavily for their education. No reason why these people flock to so called 'consultancies'. -
The reality is these US students are one of the biggest groups who flock to the consultancies. They are desperate to get a h1b before their time runs out, so they settle for anything they get, which means usually a level 1 salary. Some also resort to scams such as faking experiences in their resume, paying consultancies money in return for keeping them in status and so on.
How to Spot H-1B Fraud & Fake OPT Candidates: https://www.bridge.us/blog/how-to-spot-h1b-fraud-fake-opt-ca...
Hundreds of Indian students held in US for immigration violation:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/600-indian-student...
US-India Farmington university row: 'I fled after fake college raid':https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47154187
Fake university students knew they were committing visa 'crime':https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/fake-uni...
How the American Dream Drives Indian Students Towards Shady US Universities: https://thewire.in/education/indian-students-arent-abusing-t...
Nope they do. No Indian kid ever worked in a petty job(at least ones that I know of) until they started at a US university.That teaches a lot about value of work and value of people. They get weaved inside the fabric of Murrican society.
> Another thing is H4 is not something unique to the Infosys crowd. The Infosys crowd usually gets sent back to India once their deputation is over, they don't even get a chance to apply for h4.
I am not pointing out Infosys alone. I am using Inofsys to exemplify the likes of it. So, does the crowd really go back once the tenure is over ? Not really. Every one I knew, once they landed here jumped to a different employer and became a contractor for them. Thanks to H1B. Their H4 spouses got a free ticket to live with them. I am not saying its wrong. I am saying H4 spouses are disproportionately at advantage over other immigrant groups in gaining employment.
> The reality is these US students are one of the biggest groups who flock to the consultancies. They are desperate to get a h1b before their time runs out, so they settle for anything they get, which means usually a level 1 salary. Some also resort to scams such as faking experiences in their resume, paying consultancies money in return for keeping them in status and so on.
True. Thats what I said. If we do not curb H4 based immigration, this is only going to increase.