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> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts).

I will NEVER forgive them for this.

Jobs was RIGHT when he said this was a major innovation over everyone else.

Now Apple is either saying he was wrong or THEY are wrong. They're not BOTH right.

My 2015 is the last MBP I will ever buy and it's aging fast...

I think it's hackingtosh from here on out.

I primarily use Ubuntu but I have to have a Mac as our app runs cross platform and I need somethign to test with.

Really just the MagSafe is the big difference they lost. Supposedly the keyboard sucks, why don’t they just fix it or go back to the previous iteration.

Either way I think these are still the best notebooks you can buy.

Ubuntu doesn’t even work right on my dell desktop - it never remembers dual monitor settings, even with Nvidia official drivers installed.

When I open my MacBook Air I can just use it without waiting or worrying. That much is still the same; except now you have to worry about someone tripping over your power cord

For what it's worth, my multi-monitor settings are remembered just fine in Ubuntu 19.04. I _just_ switched from Macbook Pro to Dell XPS 13/Ubuntu, and I couldn't get multi-monitor to work for Ubuntu 18.04, but everything worked out of box for 19.04. But I don't know if upgrading will mess with any legacy config you may have!

Thanks!!! I am upgraded from 14 to 18 and was disappointed that not even Ubuntu got multi monitor to remember basic settings properly. I’ll give 19 a shot then !!

Going back would be admitting they were wrong, and they couldn't say "the thinnest MacBook ever" at their next announcement.

> Either way I think these are still the best notebooks you can buy.

Five years ago you could make that statement and not have to think twice about it. However now there is too much competition.

1. Dell XPS

2. Matebook X Pro

3. Asus Zenbook Pro

These are just 3 laptops off the top of my head that can compete with the latest and greatest Macbook Pro and come out arguably better. The keyboard, thermal issues and touchbar have really hurt the latest macbook pro. Apple needs to admit they are wrong, ditch the shitty butterfly keyboard and fix the random issues that have started plaguing the Macbook in Apple's quest for thinness.

I’ve borrowed recent fancy dell XPS 1-2 year old from IT, used and abused by previous employees.

They don’t hold up well at all. Trackpad feels crap compared to my 5 year old mb air, screens suck, keyboard feels meh. They might start out nice but they deteriorate really quickly from my firsthand sampling

The old MacBooks I’ve used from IT, however, still function like original except for the visual wear and tear you see and the ugh of using something all scratched up

Check out ebay, it's filled with used/old xps notebooks in good condition. Your single experience isn't necessarily reality. I agree that nothing competes with apple for the trackpad experience. But the screen on latest XPS beats the Macbook Pro. The XPS also offers a much better keyboard experience compared to the butterfly keyboard. And it's keyboard isn't inherently flawed and susceptible to malfunctioning due to dust.

I agree older macbooks were simply amazing and definitely a cut above the rest. But my point is that compared to the latest macbook pro, the 3 laptops I mentioned are very good competitors. It didn't used to be like this. Apple may have produced very reliable laptops many years ago, but that's no longer the case.

I last looked a few years ago and was disappointed at the non-Apple selection (because I was disappointed at the Apple selection, too).

I was looking at 13" models. Comparable PCs were very similar in form factor--non-replacable RAM and a 1tb SSD option (either included or added later myself) took the cost very close to each other. I know Apple laptops have a decent resale value and I'm familiar and comfortable with Apple's warranty and service (others might be great, too, but that'd be an unknown for me).

I needed a webcam for work and having it by the keyboard was a no-go. I know this recently changed and I was very disappointed a brand new Macbook Pro has the exact same camera a 2009 model had. They all had a similarly poor situation with USB-C, too. Either none, 1 for charging and like 1 USB-A port, or only 2-4 USB-C ports.

Looking at the failure rates and support for each brand, a trackpad and keyboard that wasn't as good, having to use Linux (I wasn't planning on using Windows), none of them looked any better.

I wish there was better competition (at least for what I'm looking for) and I wish Apple would fix the things everyone liked about the 2015. Not all of it is thinness...I miss a charging light and battery meter, give better non-touchbar options (I'd like touch ID and more USB-C ports), upgrade your camera for Pete's sake.

And all three have coil whine, for example. So I, a technical person, would personally get a MB Air for the same price despite any problems it has. So there is still a huge market and Apple doesn't have much incentives to do so, unfortunately.

I think everyone is just using "reliability" as an opportunity to whine about the feel of the keyboard.

Which is silly, because after using one for a year and then going back to my Air, that keyboard feels mushy and unresponsive. The original 12" MacBook keyboard had actual issues with ergonomics and usability - successive versions did not.

I guess I'm the only one that thinks USB-C is actually better?

The biggest win is that now I can use a single dongle for power, displayport to my monitor, and connection to a USB hub. So if I take my laptop home or into a meeting room, when I get back to my desk it's just a single thing to plug in now instead of 3+ separate cables. And since this stuff is all standardized now and there's no longer anything Apple proprietary like Thunderbolt 1, I would guess other makers will follow suit eventually and most monitors will support it directly without even needing a dongle.

Plus the MagSafe port was not without problems - every few months I would get like a little magnetic pebble or something stuck in there, and then it's plugged in but not charging charging and usually I'd realize when my laptop is almost dead and then have to find something small to try to pluck it out of there. The USB-C port doesn't have this issue and it's still a relatively small port with very low resistance to being pulled out. Tripping over the power cord just has never really been an issue for me, it kinda seems overblown (knock on wood though, I guess).

I do miss the external LED that showed whether you were connected to power or not and whether it was fully charged, it would be nice if they found a way to add that back on the side of the laptop or something since it can no longer be on the cable itself with a standard USB-C cable.

It’s not just you.

I don’t get the whining about lack of USB type-a ports or the sd card slot and hdmi port. One, ONE $30 adapter gives you all of those and you have 3 TB3 ports still to use, AND it will read more memory card formats. Edit: AND it will have more USB-A ports than the old MBP had!

I saw a manufacturer a while ago had a little magnetic adapter for a USB-c power port, too.

Oh and the common complaint about flash drives - I bought one with type a one end, and type-c the other for about $12 I think.

The added functionality of TB3 far outweighs any of the small losses IMO.

Edit2: sd card not ssd card.

>One, ONE $30 adapter gives you all of those

That's not how TB3 works though. Those cheap dongles don't necessarily pass through correctly, and this can lead to all manner of problems when you have sensitive equipment connected. Lots of reports of audio issues on USB C Macs when using external dongles, for example.

The actual TB3 hubs cost $150 minimum iirc.

This may not cause trouble in your own use case, but it's definitely potential cause for concern for people that need a lot of I/O

> That's not how TB3 works though.

The USB/hdmi/memory card adapters for $30 aren’t TB3, they’re USB-C.

If you want “a lot of I/O” then going back to 2 usb3 ports isn’t going to help you.

A single TB3 port will handle the same external I/O the previous MBPs had across all ports barring TB2.

> That's not how TB3 works though.

I don't believe that's how TB3 works, either. I might be mistaken or out of date, but I've looked. At any price I haven't seen an actual TB3 hub that gives you more ports than you start with. The ones that do aren't TB3, they're extra power-only or USB-only USB-C ports. Everything I've seen is just a passthrough TB3 port with additional accessories that are generally USB or HDMI tunneled through.

> Lots of reports of audio issues on USB C Macs when using external dongles, for example.

If you're talking about audio production...that tends to go with everything computer related for 30+ years. Which port you plug in, the brand of cable you use, the minor software release--all are potential problems. Everyone tends to have a unique setup, too.

You can even have a MagSafe USB-C cable.

I also enjoy the USB-C more. I don't know when or why, but at some point the MagSafe got annoying.

  I do miss the external LED that 
  showed whether you were 
  connected to power or not and 
  whether it was fully charged

This reminds me of the battery button that displayed a range of leds to show charge percentage when closed.

Seems like Apple could have kept MagSafe and added the usb-c ports w/ option to charge through usb-c or MagSafe. it probably wouldn’t have been a very Apple-like thing to do and then you don’t have nice clean symmetric ports, but that little cable definitely saved lots of repair dollars over the years for me

I was initially sceptical of USB-C, but was looking forward to having less things to plug in. Then I learnt that USB-C only supports up to 100W of power, and even worse the MBP included charger is only 87W. All high performance laptops draw more power than that at high load (think gaming, rendering, etc.).

I just don't see USB-C ever replacing a proper charging cable if it can't even supply enough power to run the computer! The computer you leave to render overnight will drain the battery to flat and subsequently shut down/throttle. How is that in any way acceptable?

What was the wattage on the older models?

The most powerful MagSafe adapter is 85W. GP must be talking about some PC gaming laptop

> All high performance laptops draw more power than that at high load

You’re going to need to qualify what you mean by “high performance”.

I'd classify any laptop with 6 or more intel cores and a dedicated gpu >= rx560/gtx1050(ti). Not so sure about mobile, but a desktop RX560 on its own uses 80-100W[0] which doesn't really leave any headroom for a 6 (yet alone an 8 core) cpu.

[0] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-560-4gb,5...

Recent MBP15s have 6 or 8 cores, and at least Radeon pro555, 560 or some variety of Vega.

They run on an 87W charger fine.

Two USB-C ports in parallel would get you to 200W.

According to this[0], Macbooks will only charge off one cable. Not sure if anything has changed in that regard since 2016, but I'd wager it hasn't.

[0] https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/259744/what-happen...

The comment was about USB-C generally, not limited to the MacBook implementation. There isn’t an inherent reason why two cables couldn’t carry twice the power of one.

MagSafe 1 and 2 topped out at 85W. There are gaming laptops that require more than one brick-sized charger. There are legitimate complaints in this thread, but this isn’t one of them.

I feel the same way. I do really miss magsafe (and the charging light), but I really like plugging in 1 cable for power, monitor, and accessories.

There are USB-C cables with a charging light on them. I'm a little dumbfounded why Apple doesn't offer this--their USB-C cables already come in one flavor for charging and another for high speed data. It's made worse because Apple also took off the white LED /and/ battery charging indicator on the case.

https://www.amazon.com/Moshi-Integra-USB-C-Charging-Cable/dp...

I haven't used them (there might be other brands), I hear they can be slightly weird depending on the computer+power brick because they seem to observe the power draw for the LED color.

Could it be that battery life is so much better now, so people don’t have their computers plugged in as much of the time when working?

I have a USB-C only Lenovo (well I guess it has USB-A but I never use it, I'm all in bluetooth/USB-C) and a latest gen Mac Air. I've got a USB-C charging cable for each, a dock at home and at the office that is USB-C (and manages peripherals including monitor).

Seriously a "PC" and Mac sharing all the same chargers and docking solutions. This is incredible. I never had a Mac with mag safe so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing, but the practicality of plugging in ONE cable and that same cable works between both machines and I can bring both with me places without fretting about chargers.

When I got my 2017 MBP and was comparing PCs I either wanted Magsafe-like or USB-c (Surface is magsafe-like). I ended up with a Macbook Pro. Late one night a few months after getting it I forgot a charger and ran to Target, then Wal-Mart looking for a USB-C charger and everything was still proprietary chargers. Maybe one of the display units had USB-C charging, but they didn't sell standalone chargers. USB-C had been around at least since 2015 so I didn't think I was that early of an adopter...

At least this seems to have changed a bit. Like you said, it's so nice to charge non-Apple headphones or my Switch without hunting for extra cables.

Ha! Totally forgot the Switch is USB-C, I just moved and realized I left both of my chargers in my previous apartment and now both laptops are dying, but I have the Switch!!

Have you tried one of the numerous solutions out there?

Unlike MagSafe, the higher-end ones aren't limited to just power.

https://www.engadget.com/2019/02/11/thundermag-magsafe-thund...

There are a lot of things to complain about with the newer MacBook Pros (like not offering a hardware function row without hobbling the machine). I think the MagSafe removal is one of the least strong of them.

The green LED sucks. I would charge my 2012 MacBook Pro in my bedroom, but can’t because of the light. Also, I can’t charge it and use the laptop in my lap because the MagSafe falls off easily. The new charger solves both of these problems.

Can you put some tape over the LED?

It's not ageing that fast. Mine has a 1TB drive and I'm too lazy to wipe it clean but I'm sure with a clean wipe it would run like new. The keyboard is still intact, all of the hardware in fact.

Here's the announcement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeqF7zcBOVA

It was revolutionary, and they removed it.

> Loss of MagSafe (this one still hurts).

I've been wondering for a while now why USB-IF hasn't defined a standard magnetic connector. I'm surprised none of the flagship smartphones or laptops have tried to push their own magnetic connector. They're desperate to differentiate themselves in the current market and wireless charging is falling behind quickly due to physical constraints.

I use a volta cable for my phone and it is wonderful. It handles power and data just fine. My only issue is that I have to use a dongle.

There's clearly demand for it. Magsafe and volta have proven its effectiveness. It would be a great solution for portable consumer electronics like laptops, cameras, tablets, and phones.

What's holding it back?

I think Apple has a patent

Last I heard someone else has the patent. Not Apple. Maybe someone with background information can shed light on the story.

Apple does have a patent, but I don't know if it's the only one http://patft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=...

> all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness.

I second this. It's been years now, and I still don't really see TouchBar as indispensable. Not enough apps make special use of it yet.

I don't care as much about thinness either. I just want something that works where I can replace or add RAM and storage myself.

As for magsafe, you can get a 3rd party replacement if you're willing to spend $50.

The only reason I stayed is because of MacOS, but current Apple hardware has gone into a weird direction. It's harder and harder to stay when Windows now ships with Linux.

I have a 2016 MacBook Pro, and "luckily" the anti-glare coating failed. There is a free repair program for the screen appearing stained, and replacing the display panel replaced the integrated display ribbon cable that had also failed.

I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures. I had been using it as a desktop computer for over a year. It isn't in a dusty room, and the computer still spends months without being opened. Furthermore, sometimes on waking a key will be stuck in a pressed condition, such that I can't successfully enter a password to log in. Pressing all of the keys doesn't reset the state, but force rebooting does.

If I do use the MacBook Pro's keyboard some of the keys intermittently fail to detect presses, but because there are both problems with keys being stuck engaged, and keys failing to detect presses, I suspect that the switches have some flaw where they can generally degrade due to heat rather than only dust fouling the contacts.

Anyway, I haven't yet had the keyboard replaced, because the failure is still intermittent, and I'd like to get a fresh keyboard right before selling it, sometime after a teardown confirms whether this new model is really likely to be less error prone, or maybe after a more thorough redesign for Ice Lake chips in the 13" model later this year or early next year.

> I don't think dust is the cause of all the keyboard failures.

well, this is known to be the cause

Not really. It's a cause. But it's also fairly clear given there are key clusters that are more likely to fail that it's heat related sometimes too.

There's probably not a single cause. And indeed, some of the fixes are probably making some of the other issues worse (I would not be at all surprised if the dust membrane is exacerbating the heat issues, and that's why the issues with the MacBook Air are just as bad if not worse than the other machines).

Followup for anyone reading the above with a dark screen/flex cable problem in a 2016 MacBook Pro: today, Apple announced that they will now cover this problem up to four years after the original purchase date.

The 13" 2015 model had the same issue. They replaced my screen for free a few months ago.

> - Keyboards with much worse action that are more prone to failure (from dust no less) and require replacing the motherboard to fix... all for a Touchbar no one wants and 0.5mm cut in thickness.

The keyboard replacement replaces the top-case, your motherboard and everything else is transplanted over to the new top-case.

The motherboard is not replaced. “Only” the battery, top case, touch-bar, and keyboard.

That's exactly what them person you're replying to said.

But look at what we got in return... The laptops are now 1mm thinner than they were before!

For me main indicator is that 2015 MacBooks are still selling at a rather good price.

I actually really like USB-C. The ability for any cable to work at any port is extremely nice, so I don’t have to run the power cord awkwardly just to meet the left side of the laptop.

Apple has always made aggressively experimental design changes that were a mix of steps forward and backward. Hockey puck mice, mass logic board failures, soldered flash drives and batteries, ports and dongles, etc.

People always forget the flaws of the past.

This is a really good point. Although I still inexplicably love the matte screen swivel head G3s...