I know people who genuinely believe that people in countries with socialized medicine have to wait months to see a doctor
Here's a Canadian woman with cancer that went undiagnosed for 2 years because she couldn't access a family doctor: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/health-care-plea-...
Note that she also tried to get access to mental health services to cope, in January, and has to wait until the summer.
Health care access is one of the major issues in Canada right now.
I had a thrombosed hemroid, I called and got an apointment the next day with a specialist. He confirmed my diagnosis and I got surgery to drain and remove it the following day. Only cost me less than 200 dollars after insurance.
I had a bump on my testicle. I was concerned about cancer, so I see my regular doctor. $20 copay and he said it was just a blood something. I wanted to be sure, so he refered me and I got an ultrasound the same day at another facility. That only cost me a $100-something dollars after insurance. (It wasn't cancer.)
Thrombosed hemroid where 95% of people treat it by soaking it in water daily? Probably low-priority, 58 days. Waiting 58 days for an ultrasound to see if you have cancer?
Yeah, I'll keep the coverage/insurance that I have. I still understand the vast majority doesn't have it as good as I do and we still need to fix the system. I think we can bring people's standards up to what I experience, not down to what Canada experiences.
You must not live in a big city because it is difficult to get appointments in the bay area.
Houston
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/03/vete...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_total_hea...
I mean, even ignoring advanced reasons and thinking about this logically, do you really think healthcare for a country with 348 people per square kilometer scales to a country with 4 people per square mile?
I accept that Japan has the most MRI machines per capita in the entire world, but the question is why is that? It could be economy of scale, but that doesn’t explain why Japan is such an outlier globally
Canada spends about 2% more, or 100$ more per capita: https://img.datawrapper.de/IzkJn/full.png
You think spending 2% more will result in comparable healthcare to a country with 870% higher population density?
> I think total population density is misleading when Canada’s population is very concentrated in a few cities.
Ah yes of course, because you can just abandon those who don't live in the few cities.
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It's almost like this is a complex issue you can't simplify by examining one dimension at a time, but even if for a second you smoke test this idea by singling out population density, it's absurd to expect similar outcomes.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-uni...
>The most visible manifestation of Canada’s failing health care system are wait times for health care services. In 2013, Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner. This wait time is almost twice as long as it was in 1993 when national wait times were first measured.
I think it's the same in Canada. In some areas there are no waits and in other areas there are long waits. I think they need to look at percentiles to get a more accurate measure.
As with most western democracies, Canadian doctors are well compensated in comparison to the rest of society. But it is generally understood that they can make more money in the US if they qualify for immigration (and many can because of rules allowing people with specialist skills to get immigrant visas). This also contributes to reduced supply of specialists, and longer waiting times.
To get to see one of the available specialists in Canada, you have to have a referral from a primary care provider. Here in the US (in my experience) a referral is as simple as saying to your GP, "I want to see a cardiologist." Then your GP says "Oh, sure, this one's very good. I'll refer you." In Canada, your GP has to follow plan guidelines for referrals, and confirm that it is warranted. Then you get on the waiting list for the specialist. You'll wait for a consultation. At the consultation the specialist will determine whether or not you need treatment, and the urgency. Then you go on the waiting list for treatment.
Of course, Canadians with the financial resources are free to travel to other countries to obtain medical treatment more quickly. The provincial medical plans do not pay for treatments obtained outside of Canada. Medical "tourism" is not that unusual, including travel to the US and other countries.
This says that, Going by referral to consultation (not treatment, that takes another 10 weeks), the shortest waits for specialist consultations are 6.7 weeks in Ontario and longest are in New Brunswick (26.6 weeks)
Including treatment times, the variation is 15.4 weeks to 41.7 weeks.
Maybe that’s another reason folks in the different sides are basically talking past each other. If you’re not in a major urban area, seeing a doctor is very fast in the US. When I lived in DC it could take a month or more to get a routine pediatrician’s appointment (something like a physical for school enrollment). In exurban Maryland I can often get them the next day, rarely more than a few days.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08...
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-America-Global-Better-Cheaper...
And Canada isn’t the only alternative to the U.S. when it comes to health systems.
We've moved to SoCal. Under HMO, specialist wait time is about a month now.
My wife needed 3 months to schedule a sleep doctor appointment, 3 months to schedule a minimally-invasive surgery (That manages to bill her, and the insurer wrong), and every time she needs a re-fill of her prescriptions, it's a complete fucking crap-shoot of whether or not:
1. The manufacturer managed to produce enough pills to fill its orders.
2. The pharmacy bothers to call her, to notify that the prescriptions are in.
3. That the prescriptions are actually in, and that she didn't waste her time walking to the grocery store.
Meanwhile, on my side of things, I end up watching my insurance get billed $750 for 5 minutes of a doctor's (And 15 minutes of his assistant's) time. This is truly the most humanitarian, efficient, and accountable medical system on the face of the planet.
> Canadians, on average, faced a four and a half month wait for medically necessary treatment after referral by a general practitioner.
'Medically necessary' is an irrelevant qualifier. All treatment is medically necessary, if it weren't, the GP wouldn't prescribe it, and Canada wouldn't pay for it.
The term you're looking for is 'Non-life-threatening'.
But I have heard that the wait time for old people who need hip or knee replacements is quite excessive.
This is nowhere close to being true. Patients frequently demand treatment that the doctor, left to his own devices, wouldn't give.
My least favorite example of this comes from China, where people will go to the hospital to get intravenous saline solution for a common cold, but it's ubiquitous everywhere including the US.
Hence, medical care is either life threatening (which will get you seen ASAP), medically necessary (which may take some time to get to, depending on the procedure), or medically unnecessary (which is not covered by the healthcare system, and your wait time will be until the heat death of the universe.)
There is no 'a doctor said that we should do this, but we think he's full of shit, so we are scheduling you X months in the future' tier of medical care in Canada. You either need it now, need it, or don't.
If the hospitals can't tell the difference between necessary and unnecessary care apart, then the study authors sure as shit can't. That's why the quantifier of 'necessary medical procedure' is a weasel word. If the procedure is covered, it is by definition, necessary.
Why? Are there more sick people? Are there fewer doctors and resourced? I've seen many articles covering the issue, but nothing that provides a concrete explanation for why a system used to work but doesn't anymore.
TANSTAAFL
Yes, mainly due to an ageing population and partly due to obesity. An increasingly old and obese population needs more healthcare and is more complicated and expensive to treat.
I moved to the US. When the doctor told me the wait would be a couple weeks and to call back if I was having issues, I laughed. I was amazed. And the MRI was absolutely necessary.
Having said that: (more) better doctors and (more) cheep MRI machines would really help.
Same for some kinds of surgeries. Friend was bounced around in TO for a year he needed some knee reconstruction. He could walk but nothing else but it was not a priority.. So drove over border, had consultation, drove week later and had it done. I am not sure what it cost, but he is not rich, typical sysadmin job
How do I know? I grew up exclusively utilizing free healthcare for the poor. I never had any other kind until I was an adult. I still know a lot of poor people from where I grew up that rely on programs like Medicaid. They have no problem expeditiously accessing normal things like MRIs and CTs.
We do spend less than half as much on healthcare per capita than the US and we have better health outcomes by most measures, but it's very much a no-frills system.
Nurses are to the UK what Soldiers are to the US, any criticism of the NHS is effectively shot down as Capitalist propaganda. There are some serious questions to be asked about the NHS, which arguably cannot be answered (Even if the result is staying with the status quo) due to an extremely sceptical and anti-capitalist left wing.
The only measures we rank highly on are those weighting access as well as outcome
Heck, it only took three operations to fix a botched root canal, and I considered myself lucky.
As an example, I am now waiting 2 months to see my family doctor (I just need prescriptions for simple anti histamines, since it's cheaper that way), and 3 years to see a dermatologist for a routine check.
On the other side, a member of my family unfortunately was diagnosed cancer about 3 weeks ago, and she had several medical appointments every week since then.
I was like, wait, you lived there, experienced the opposite of what you're saying and STILL manage to make up lies to make it sound bad? WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?!?!