Men, commit to mentor women | Hacker News Reader

Men, commit to mentor women

leanin.org

59 pointsr_singh129 comments

> Senior-level men are now far more hesitant to spend time with junior women than junior men across a range of basic work activities.3 They are:

> 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings

> 9x more likely to hesitate to travel together for work

> 6x more likely to hesitate to have work dinners.

I think a contributing factor is that harassment can ultimately be a he-said/she-said kind of deal. You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention). Exemplified by the 12x more likely to hesitate to have 1-on-1 meetings. Any fix for this seems to be bad, adding third parties, adding surveillance, etc. All of that points to 'one of these parties is not to be trusted'.

> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined

While I have heard these stories, they are all anecdotes that I wasn't able to verify. Can you give any real cases?

I dont think OP is necessarily suggesting the fear is justified. But fear does influence our actions, and can be really hard to reason your way out of.

Very valid point, thank you!

Throwaway for obvious reasons. I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass to me and my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment. I immediately apologized either way. She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship, me being married, her being 10 years younger than me and her talking about it, but I was sexually harassing her in her eyes. I can say for certain real sexual harrasment happens and I've even put a stop to it in more than one occasion in my management role or at family settings, but I've definitely been falsely accused. I brought up the conversation to my wife the night it happened and she thought it was hilarious because she knows me. Especially back then I was very socially awkward. Something I've worked at for years to get better at. I now work with multiple female coworkers very well, but they are all adults who don't behave like this to me.

She “brought up her ass to you” and your reply “slipped part your filter”. What does any of that mean?

Presumably, it means that OP was made uncomfortable and voiced that discomfort in some way, and she took it badly/got offended for whatever reason. It's hard to say more than that based on what he/she stated - but even that implies that the workplace culture must be quite bad there. Not the sort of place many men would want to work in, for sure!

It was a younger workplace where sexual comments were not uncommon from either gender. For the most part, the more attractive you were the better liked you were by your peers. I actually had a pretty fantastic female boss when I was let go who was helping me work on being less socially awkward. She left me a glowing review on my LinkedIn and she was aware of everything that transpired and what was said. People who know me think this is funny, because they know me and how easily mortified I get when I say something I don't intend to. I'm significantly better now, but it's taken a lot of effort on my part. I've never been an overtly sexual person so this was a really odd situation for me to be in. In the end I ended up with a new job in a different place for lots more money.

It seems like he said something inappropriate about a coworker's body, but it's still somehow the coworker's fault and a false allegation, according to him.

When your self-reporting still makes you sound defensive about bad behavior, you probably need to come to terms with, and take responsibility for, your actions.

We don't know what OP said (or rather, mumbled out) about her body. From what OP states, it's reasonable to infer that they said "Your body is in my personal space, you're making me uncomfortable" or something to that effect. And then they got in trouble for that, which seems quite indefensible!

That's a straw man argument built on pure conjecture. We're all educated adults here, that not going work.

> my confused reply, which I didn't mean to say it loud but being exhausted it slipped part my filter and I mumbled it out loud, was cited as sexual harassment

Whatever he said, he immediately apologized for it, and still to this day blames fatigue and confusion and says he didn't mean to say it out loud. So no, it is completely unreasonable to infer anything other than an inappropriate comment.

There is not a real world in which people are making innocent statements innocently and losing their jobs. That is a fantasy world that exists in the fever dreams of men who have trouble treating women as people.

That depends on what you mean by "inappropriate", of course. People say all sorts of things they don't mean to when they're made uncomfortable by something, and the line between "discomfort", "confusion" and "fatigue" is itself quite fuzzy. And yes, they apologized for it immediately afterwards - but apologies themselves can be strategically unwise, and leave one open to manipulative behavior in response to a perceived display of weakness. Their wife certainly didn't seem to think OP's behavior was inappropriate in the way you're implying, and she'd obviously care if it was!

All in all, I'm not sure why you seem to be willfully ignoring the whole part where OP explains what prompted their remark (whatever that might have been) in the first place; whether intentional or not, it seems that a somewhat "inappropriate" situation had already occurred by that time.

"apologized either way."

You have( maybe or maybe not purposefully) left out "either way" which means it need not be inappropriate by intention. Even then sadly, an apology is not enough for some weird concocted subjective self victimization and the eyes of OP's woman start putting off fire until the life of the OP gets totally ruined.

"brought up her ass to me", "She shook her ass at me despite us having no real relationship","but they are all adults who don't behave like this to me." are as clear as sunny day.

Sounds like that stupid woman came up to him and tried to seduce, sexually harass, or pull a cheap attention mongering stunt in the name of "part of fun time at office". You may find this ridiculous but there are women who do this. I have had to push a woman off of me in not so tightly packed elevator while she was "having fun" with her butt rubbing my genitals. She in fact, laugh out loud explaining this experience with colleagues in the office as 'first time an anal' and her boyfriend later.

I was mortified and violated, fresh in the memory till date, but hey! since I am a guy, I am some closet monster prowling on women with a magical magnetic genital, who has total disregard to my sweat and blood to barely hope to lead a dignified life, have intact family and be a dedicated earner of higher promotions. Nobody should care if all of these require just one domino to start falling with, eh? Everybody can just paint me defensive and accept whatever non-sense as consequences of "my" acts.

We must just believe and be at mercy of these women or risk all that we earned if we speak up against in these situations. In the mean time, those who did, just deny deny deny and gas-light them and brush them of as liar who genetically are incapable to treat women as fellow humans.

The problem with us human beings is we have ingrained the gynocentric justice system in our minds where perhaps the women can never be wrong at all. Its always the guy's fault. Firstly we start by dismissing their experiences In the mean time, we start assigning them some "responsibility" they didn't need to burden themselves with in this misandrist new world. This is insulting to men and greatest injustice to other women as well.

The OP's situation is also the time where people in same page say acceptable light-hearted comments which otherwise would be inappropriate or lewd. These comments are passed by women themselves routinely and accepted very well by bosses. For I have seen women spank a guy's arse and praise "sexy!" in stationary rooms or pull tie and ask something work related with innuendos, etc. I mean obviously an action gets a reaction, however confused or exhausted it may be. In fact, many do have a slip of tongue in exhaustion, how so ever we press hard to deny them of their own life experiences. We should not treat men like they don't matter, they are constantly doubted, they are not valued and be dismissed just because the opposite party in the situation happens to be a woman.

There should be laws that outright fire these women with a code of conduct stamp as sexual harasser. That is the supposed real world we should give women to train them to treat men with respect and stop gas-lighting them.

I understand where you're coming from, but still, please don't blame women at large for manipulative/narcissistic/sociopathic behavior that a minority in both genders, without distinction, might engage in. This stuff is just as bad no matter if it's coming from women or from "male sexist pigs".

I was addressing the commenter, whose life was not totally ruined. In fact, it seems he didn't lose his job or face any consequences other than a conversation with HR, if that. You are clearly talking about a completely unrelated conversation and projecting quite a bit here.

You describe being sexually harassed in the workplace, and you had every reason to complain to HR yourself. I hope you did so, and I further hope you weren't dismissed when you did so--which does unfortunately sometimes happen.

As for the rest, yes, bad actors exist in some workplaces. Don't be one of them, try to handle those you encounter professionally, and maybe ask yourself: why the women you see acting badly prompt you to throw around ridiculous terms like "gynocentric justice system" while the men you see acting badly don't seem to register at all.

The more I read your posts, the more it feels obvious for guys to facepalm and continue to defend their dignity and stop mentoring. Time has come now to make you contemplate on why bad supporters like you are more dangerous than bad actors. I beg you to stop being one of them.

No where did he say he made an inappropriate comment except for your premature judgemental attitude. Are we so incapable of being more nuanced to differentiate awkward[1] from sexual comments? Sure they both come under 'inappropriate' but not all inappropriate comments deserve taking up with HR. And only matured people understand that.

You got to get your facts right first of all. "I was let go due to "financial reasons" because a co-worker brought up her ass" [0]

He was fired. The company was so coward that it couldn't even come forward and say what he was fired for, had it been truly about - sexual harassment. That means the company didn't follow due procedure just like mine. Now I know what feminists typically say - that it is us men who should run pillar to post and fight against big powerful corporates in the courts, while make themselves unemployed, potentially unemployable and leave their own families starved.

Its rarely lucky that he got benefit of doubt in another company to join when he searched without protest and and his female boss knew how he fell pray to the woman's scheming[1]. But most don't. Just look at #metoo accused guys who said more benign and non-sexual things. Most of them didn't get another job for far too long and are in the wait. Many got divorces because running a one sided family becomes unsustainable.

The depressing problem with our society is it don't recognize that a guy does feel the psychological trauma, emotional and mental distress because of not just us twisting his facts, but his friend and family circle that leave him in lurch usually because they don't want to associate even with a criminal accused. All because he is a guy. Your comment is a live example of it.

Not only do we not recognize the gravity of such stupid misuse of power, but gaslight him as not seeing "his" problems. We just keep parroting its all his fault. This is the textbook example of victim blaming.

And how is unconsented twerking of arse somehow acceptable when unconsented exhibition of penis is called sexual harassment? On top of that, we encourage women to complain against him?

"Dude, you have a problem. You clearly cannot see it, but you have a problem. I'm not making assumptions based on anything but your own words, and in your own words, you have a problem. Maybe less of a problem than you once did, but still a problem."

You said its his problem four times without backing up any of it. That speaks volumes about you than me and further proves my point of "gynocentric justice". I don't understand from where you get such magical clues that it doesn't seem to register men acting badly in me. That's totally straw man argument and doesn't even deserve a dignified reply.

He clarifies - "but it wasn't in any way sexually suggestive"[2]

So you cannot even imagine something even in alternate world that a sexual act of her's can't be replied with something awkward and without involving any sexually suggestive in it? Now we doubt the one who speak up and try be honest, huh?

If this is not ruining, then I guess you have ruined it for women having undergone sexual harassment for real and its just nothing as much to avoid the contradiction in your own belief.

The OP's life is never representative of the bigger picture. In fact, #metoo movement is, where the complaint was in same intensity of acts and the consequences were overkill.

> You describe being sexually harassed in the workplace, and you had every reason to complain to HR yourself. I hope you did so, and I further hope you weren't dismissed when you did so--which does unfortunately sometimes happen.

Yes I did complain to HR, a woman. She smirked and said that it will be immediately dealt with. I was not followed up what happened finally. I was purposefully kept in the dark. The accused continued the job as if nothing happened. Nothing happened. The HR begrudged me for taking it to her higher ups. She instead spread that incident as a rumour to the whole department( I work in) that I won't whine and complain for such a lucky chance and the accused got support of her female friends that it was nothing wrong among her female friends. Some of them who listened to HR tried to implicate me as a lech pulling a victim card.

My location of the office: New York. Yeah, New York!

He clarifies in another comment[2] - "People who know me think this is funny, because they know me and how easily mortified I get when I say something I don't intend to."

So people who know him find it funny and people who don't know him like you find it unbelievable, huh!

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19969673 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975794 [2]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975728

I take responsibility for my actions, but this kind of proves the point of why guys don't want to be around women in the workplace. It doesn't matter what the situation is you're automatically assumed to be a lecherous hump. My comment which was meant as a "what the hell am I supposed to say to that" could easily have been construed differently. Bad behavior? I was mentally exhausted from 12 hours on the phone, locking up for the night, and someone I barely knew starts saying sexually suggestive comments at me and literally shaking her ass as she says it. What exactly do I need to come to terms with? I apologized because whatever I said I hadn't meant to say anything. I'm not saying what I said because it would immediately identify me as it was a really awkward thing to say in any conversation but it wasn't in any way sexually suggestive, i.e. I was not making any references to performing acts on her or requesting any acts from her, nor was I asking her to take it further, I was in no way going to impact her career as I didn't even work directly with her, this was a young woman I had spoken to roughly twice prior in a simple hello in the break room. I was horribly socially awkward back then and it's taken me years to get to the point I am today in social situations, I've worked on it and gotten better and I don't tolerate sexual harassment of women in my workplace, but that's not good enough. You want to know why men stop mentoring? Because one misconstrued comment can literally cost you a job. You're automatically assumed guilty, just like on this comment thread. It kind of sounds like men need to be defensive.

Any implications are based on exactly what you said. You painted a picture of the scenario about like looking through Jello.

In one sentence you say you made an inappropriate comment and apologized, and later lament that one misconstrued comment can cost you a job, but that’s not what happened.

It seems like you still don’t feel any responsibility. Maybe the woman did tempt you, I don’t know what she said, but you make it seems as if she made the words come from your mouth. If she made sexually suggestive comments first, that’s wrong and she should’ve been disciplined as well, but how is anyone to know that when you can’t be straightforward.

>Any implications are based on exactly what you said. You painted a picture of the scenario about like looking through Jello.

Not at all. It is fault of our premature judgemental attitude. I have shown this how[0]. I will further prove how abysmal your comprehension skills are for all the irony to accuse him of that.

>It seems like you still don’t feel any responsibility. Maybe the woman did tempt you, I don’t know what she said, but you make it seems as if she made the words come from your mouth.

Wait a minute, so it is mere tempting if a woman does it, but sexual harassment when men does unconsented exhibition of penis? It is that easy to brush it off as be disciplined?

Did the OP request her to twerk her arse? I side with OP and yes, he shouldn't burden responsibility. She alone is responsible for making the words come out of his mouth especially in fatigue. It was non-sexual and inappropriate. That doesn't give anybody any right to fire. This is why men are not mentoring women. Your comment adds weight to their decision.

And more over, the way he said it matters more than what he said it? Like his grammar and presentation is all of a sudden the reason to judge?

As I have written it before[0] - The OP's situation is also the time where people in same page say acceptable light-hearted comments which otherwise would be inappropriate or lewd. These comments are passed by women themselves routinely and accepted very well by bosses. For I have seen women spank a guy's arse and praise "sexy!" in stationary rooms or pull tie and ask something work related with innuendos, etc. I mean obviously an action gets a reaction, however confused or exhausted it may be. In fact, many do have a slip of tongue in exhaustion, how so ever we press hard to deny them of their own life experiences. We should not treat men like they don't matter, they are constantly doubted, they are not valued and be dismissed just because the opposite party in the situation happens to be a woman.

>In one sentence you say you made an inappropriate comment and apologized, and later lament that one misconstrued comment can cost you a job, but that’s not what happened.

He apologized "any way" which means he didn't want trouble in times of paranoia and wants to assuage. Even an apology is not enough these days. It doesn't mean he acknowledges his "mistakes". And you wonder why men don't mentor women?

Why is it so hard to think that inappropriate comments can be non-sexual in nature and doesn't deserve running to parents like kids. He didn't even imply anything sexual[1]. It was you who were quick to judge. You should take responsibility. He did lose his job. He wrote that clearly in the first few sentences itself[1] and also other comment[2].

[0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19971760 [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19969673 [2]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19975794

I never said I made an inappropriate comment, I said I hadn't meant to say anything and someone could have construed it as something it wasn't. I apologized because the situation was awkward. Should women who apologize when men are harassing them be automatically considered the guilty party? At what point do I get empathy from you for being put in a situation I clearly did not put myself in. I didn't know this young woman, I hadn't made advances towards her, yet she felt it appropriate to make a very overt sexual advance at me. Yeah I see entirely that I should take responsibility for not immediately having a perfect response to an awkward situation. You've proven the point of every man who doesn't want to mentor with your comments in this thread. Guilty until proven innocent.

To this day you mention repeatedly that the woman in question was "shaking her ass" at you. Dude, you have a problem. You clearly cannot see it, but you have a problem. I'm not making assumptions based on anything but your own words, and in your own words, you have a problem. Maybe less of a problem than you once did, but still a problem.

Also, "can literally cost you a job" but it didn't! This is said over and over and over, but the usual consequence is having a conversation with HR and then life continues as normal. Based on your words, you did not lose your job, so please stop parroting this over-the-top edge-case claim as it if were the norm.

Lost my job. Found a new one. You're still blaming the person who was sexually harassed for not responding the way you expected them to. There was no real HR in this company. I had a problem with being an awkward communicator. In my own life it was enough to cost me my job. I provided a reason why men aren't willing to risk their careers, and you just didn't like that it actually happens. The fact of the matter is that I should never have been put in that situation in the first place. I didn't ask for the sexual advance, had I been a woman you would be entirely on my side as women shouldn't be responsible for perfect responses to sexual harassment either, and it's easier to fire a male employee and avoid an HR issue or a lawsuit than it is to do due diligence unless you're already a company that approves of a horrible workplace. I think you have a problem with the fact that this actually happened and it doesn't fit your world view.

Why was this comment flagged?

If we define the scope to people accused and not found guilty, then there are a lot of such cases. During #metoo there were three major cases in Swedish news, two which where the accused were not found guilty and one where the accused was found guilty.

For the two where the accused was not found guilty, they both lost all employment and had to flee the country for months with their family, received death threats, and so on. The justice ombudsman found basically all the major news papers guilty of unethical reporting regard those two individuals, and there is ongoing cases regarding slander and illegal termination of employment.

Hence the policy of the US Vice President Mike Pence to never have a 1-on-1 meeting with any woman except his wife.

I don't think Pence does this merely because he's afraid of being falsely accused. I think he does it also because he's seen too many people in his position give in to temptation, and he knows that he is not immune. So he's taking proactive steps to keep himself from being in a position to give in to temptation.

I think it's also a lot worse in politics, in that you might reasonably have someone try to entrap you purely for political reasons. There are "politics" in commercial and academic settings too, but not usually played at the same level. If I were Pence I wouldn't want to have 1 on 1 meetings with men, either.

I think the real problem these days is more of a "she-said/its over for him" regardless of actual facts. So it is hard to blame someone to now be in "cover-your-arse-mode". And yes, this climate is the fault of the edge cases of both genders, equally the creeps who overstep boundaries and and the liars who smear innocent people for personal gain.

> You hear horror stories about men being falsely accused and getting their lives ruined (though I don't know how big that number is, but it's something to get mad about so it gets a lot of attention)

I wish there was more of an effort made to measure that. It would really help with these types of conversations

It’s a simple risk reward call. There is far more risk of accidentally crossing the line with the opposite sex. Yes MeToo has shed light on a lot and no doubt been a net positive but there will be a time until the dust settles and people learn how to work together safely. We no longer have a good formal set of norms for male female interaction. Maybe that could make some sense in situations like the work place where there is a power difference.

/s "Just be a decent human being!".

Can you define accidentally?

Do a lot of people give their boss middle finger accidentally?

Like yo, went to work, talked to CEO and give him finger, must be weather.

No but people do get too familiar with the boss and make comments or conduct them selves in ways that are not appropriate with a boss.

People do make jokes that offend CEO's or customers all the time. Social interaction is not as easy to navigate for everyone.

I'm not talking about blatant abuses of power here I'm talking about subtle interactions that make people uncomfortable.

"No longer"? #MeToo was about highlighting how many dysfunctional behaviours occurred with the current set of norms, so clearly the old norms didn't work great either.

I suspect that view depends on your gender.

I didn't mean that as a facetious comment. As (hopefully) a non-creepy male I was blissfully unaware of the prevalence. I didn't do it, see it, hear it - and therefore it didn't happen. Therefore nothing to worry about.

Now I know it happens far more frequently that I'd thought, I worry about it. Plus, unlike a lot of other workplace issues, it's.. well currently awkward (for want of a better word) to handle.

If you didn't believe to be somebody involved before, it's a little hard to work out how you should adjust your behaviour.

e.g. "Would you care to join me for dinner after the meetings today, I assure you it is merely to discuss the outcome of the workshops and the day ahead. I can assure you that it is in no way an attempt for me to force you to spend some time with me in the presence of alcohol. I would like to stress I would never try to use my power to seduce you. I tried to ask HR how to ask you out, but they got worried as well. When I said "asked out" just then I didn't mean in a "date" sense, but in a..."

orders room service

OK - more facetious than I thought. Sorry.

Maybe more realistic scenario is just when working away asking "Can you come to my room so we can spend 30 mins updating the deck for tomorrow?"

Think I'd have been fine asking that previously - and now maybe less so. We can try to lurk in a corner of the lobby, which is annoying loud and doesn't have a desk.

But that change involves the thought of "maybe I'm considered to be a creepy male" - and that's not a nice thought to have (although probably good for me).

Just change the question to? Are you OK with us continuing in my room because blah blah, otherwise we can just do it in the lobby.

Basically, you give them power to decide where they feel comfortable most. Especially first time around.

“Can you come to my room in 30m to do blah” is an order basically, so as a result you already create hostile situation irrelevant of gender.

That's still no good (opinion, not statement of fact).

Just suggest the lobby, or find a coffee shop. It may be annoying, but now you're not putting any burden on her at all. If she suggests an alternative, you can use your judgement, but why even put that on her in the first place?

I don't think Harvey Weinstein's actions were anywhere close to accepted by "the old norms". He didn't get away with it for so long because "that's who society works, that's what everybody did", but because he was extremely powerful. Power always allows you to sidestep rules and norms because your victims will be afraid of you and others that could interfere will want favors from you, so they look away.

Pre sexual revolution there were strict codes of conduct. Often broken but they were thrown out leaving a void.

Its not just about accidentally crossing the line but the possibility of bad intentions. Especially if there is a difference in power. University has the same problem. Never be alone in a room with a female student you have to grade is really important advice for male Professors. Having a third party sit in in one on one meetings is generally a reasonable precaution. Its simply to big of a risk to take. Its only reasonable that situation is similar with people in different positions of the company hierarchy.

Its unfortunate but it is what it is. Telling people to do it despite the risk involved is just bad advice.

The problem is that risk reward is so skewed in other direction.

For anyone to accuse someone of sexual harassment is 100% career killing move.

So when 2 people in the room, the one with least power has the most to loose in bringing accusations.

I dont think that is the case, but it might be a regional or cultural difference.

In America what person is going to gain by bringing accusations.

The best case is pay out, but they definitely lost this job, future opportunities, etc. They are not going to get recommendations letters.

As soon as you accuse someone you start costing company gigaton of money.

In America we promote/keep people who make money not cost money.

> The best case is pay out, but they definitely lost this job, future opportunities, etc. They are not going to get recommendations letters.

You think this didn't change after MeToo? This kind of attitude can easily end in a legal and PR nightmare.

This is a rational analysis of the game theory with both parties being rational actors, that is not always the case.

Imagine a situation where the employee hates the manager and just wants to screw them over for a past issue, being passed over for a promotion or whatever, and the employee is going through some life patches. The employee has a one on one with their employer privately to solve an issue and then following this meeting, turns around and sued the company and the manager with sexual harassment.

If you do not think there are vindictive employees, then your statement works, however, they exist. So, if you are innocent and accused, the risk FAR outweighs the mentor ship rewards; losing your job, being blackballed, loss of trust from your significant other, etc. vs. providing guidance.

This precisely.

Think back to your interactions with others (siblings, playmates, etc.) as a kid. Those experiences taught you how to interact with others. Obviously there were mistakes - you learn to not punch others, call names, etc. The punishment was often a simple timeout, note to parents, etc.

People need to "learn" how to interact with "others" in a professional setting. This process of learning involves making mistakes. Unfortunately, in the professional workplace, the "punishment" usually involves HR, lawyers, and a risk to ruin one's career/reputation.

So most people prefer to not "learn", and instead stick to interacting with only those they are already comfortable with - e.g. people of the same gender, color, social class etc. Social media has already made this hell. More laws will only make this worse. Of course, this isn't helped by the fact that there are actual assholes who deliberately abuse others.

Anecdote - I once sent a stern/corrective email to a female colleague/junior. There was nothing gender specific in the message. My/our boss was in cc. She forwarded the mail to HR, and I got a rebuke from the boss (male) and an informal warning to not critique women. Voila.

And so we’re still denying women opportunity for the sake of the comfort of men.

Do you think this is comfort? Do you really think being afraid of accusations is a comforting situation in any way?

It wouldn't hurt you to see the world through other viewpoints from time to time.

Yes. There's a whole body of language out there used to deride male behaviors in the workplace:

- mansplaining: not the same as mentoring, but try drawing that Venn diagram someday.

- patriarchal: Shame on men for assuming women _need_ help from them with their careers. That's a sexist assumption. Try drawing the Venn diagram for mentoring and fatherly behavior.

The whole bandwagon of "microaggressions" and "unconscious bias" where people are attempting to solve for thought crime gets us here, where it is safer to disengage.

I don't think you're disagreeing with the GP here.

I'm stating agreement with the post I replied to, yes.

That's a load of BS. Have you ever been accused of "crossing the line" with a male colleague? Have you even been concerned that you might? If not, then I think I found your problem. If someone can't come in to work and do something as simple a act like a professional around their co-workers for a few hours then it makes me wonder what else they can't do professionally.

A male colleague will often lean on others here at work. Other males. It's a little creepy but no one really cares. It just doesn't have the same impact.

> Not harassing women is not enough. > >Now more than ever, we need men to support women–not overlook or avoid them.

They have got to be joking.

If you care about your career, your family and your reputation, you simply do not leave yourself open to even the slightest possibility of being falsely accused of anything, or having someone suddenly “remember” something in ten or twenty years time if you reach the top levels of your industry.

Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague. You do not strike up casual conversations that could be misconstrued. You do not offer them a lift home. Most importantly, you do not become their mentor, friend, emotional support, or anything beyond polite, respectful, professional interactions directly related to work.

I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but our culture has changed. There is an insatiable appetite for scalps, accusations are considered proof, and there is no sign of sanity or reason entering the equation anytime soon. With such potential to rip your life apart, the only sane move is to firewall yourself.

But a result, you treat them unfairly vs male colleagues.

Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power.

I can’t be in room with black, trans-gender, gay, immigrants etc.

So as result the only people who you built relationships are white straight dudes which get promoted.

> Also same logic can be applied to any minority who is not in power.

No, not really. There are basically zero (published) incidents where, for example, a black guy claims somebody else insulted him when they were alone. For trans women (not f2m, as far as I know), it gets dicey as well.

And you're certainly right: you'll treat them differently, which may be unfair to them, but risk you career to treat them fairly? I doubt that a lot of people will choose fairness to others over their future.

Well that’s why people in power and leadership roles make big bucks.

They must make sure that everyone performs to the max of their ability and at the same time limit risks.

Otherwise it is work discrimination light.

If one person's unverified accusation can completely ruin the life of someone else, who really has the power here?

What? Even my local news has had stories about black people claiming they were called racial slurs or subjected to racist jokes at work. Google “GM plant racism” for a national story, of Tesla, or Chrysler. It’s been an issue at all in the last few years.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say there isn't any racism, I meant it's not a he-said-she-said-situation that can end careers without any evidence of wrongdoing.

The Toledo plant sounds very different from that, with "whites only" signs and nooses (and management tolerating it). The men who are not mentoring women for the reasons stated in the article certainly don't openly insult and harass them, because that would end their careers much, much quicker than mentoring them and being falsely accused of inappropriate behavior.

People care significantly less about racism which is why it doesn’t often end careers, but instead leads to sensitivity training or an apology. In many, probably most, cases it’s exactly he-said-she-said because people aren’t usually stupid/arrogant enough to leave physical proof of their racism.

> People care significantly less about racism which is why it doesn’t often end careers

Exactly, that's all I said. The he-said-she-said isn't enough to have severe consequences, hence few people are uncomfortable to meet 1:1 with a minority.

>Like it or not, we are back to Victorian rules. At work, you never allow yourself to be alone with a female colleague.

Even the Victorians, for the most part, weren't actually this mental.

Well, this is where social media and social justice brought us. People are so afraid of each other that they actively try to barricade themselves in real life.

We thought we are opening doors, but we are actually closing them, one by one.

Instead of following a simple 'live and let live' rule, we are now actively hunting for the slightest mistakes and missteps. Humans can't be humans anymore, there is no room for error, or mistake. Even if the court rules in favour of the accused, the branding they can get on social platforms breaks their careers and it might drive them to suicide. Where mobs demand the employer to fire said individual is just insane.

But why are we even surprised, when just telling a tasteless joke counts as an offence nowadays? Where the micro-aggression craze is consuming everybody and some forms of speech are labeled as an act of violence. People are more afraid of saying something offending to someone than having an office shooter marching through the door and gunning down people.

Walking away was never more an appropriate response as it is right now. The reward is minuscule compared to the risk one can take in these situations on a personal level.

The old status quo was horrible for women, but the current situation makes some men uncomfortable, so I guess that's worse?

Or maybe changes are necessary, and the bad old days are still hanging on in the form of people failing to recognize how bad things were and still are for women.

It's not worse, it is the same but the other way around. Not every man is a sexist pig and not every woman is a saint.

But clearly women have more power over men (in this so called men's world) where they can easily accuse anyone and destroy their lives in an instant.

Both sexes have their good and bad side. We shouldn't let our guard down and favour one over the other.

How are things bad in western societies for women? Please give me examples. Where you have female leaders all around the place. If you were referring to the Middle East, I agree women are oppressed as hell over there.

> where they can easily accuse anyone and destroy their lives in an instant

This is not true. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Saying that "this is not true", doesn't make it not true. And repeating it wont make it untrue either. Slow clap for your logic.

Also, if this would be so untrue, we wouldn't have studies like these in the first place.

But please, tell me whom would you believe sooner in a case where a man is being accused of sexual harassment, or even rape? Even if it turns out that the woman was falsely accusing him, the damage is already done. He lost his job, he receives death threats, he's being doxed, etc...

At that stage it really doesn't matter what the outcome of the court rule will be, that man has no life anymore. And what will the accuser get? One year? Maybe two?

It is the same as a father rarely wins a court case over who can take custody of the child. The mother needs to be a drug user and a very bad person for even being considered to be unfit for parenting. And I know, I have friends who lost their kids to their abusive wives.

I think there are a lot of gives and takes here. People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic. I think this may be the first time many men in the workplace had to sit back and evaluate the things they say before they say them. This movement has shed light on some of the utterly repulsive behavior people have been getting away with for years, now people just ask you to think twice before telling a joke. If thinking before saying something to a female coworker is that difficult for so many, then I am not really sure what we can do to fix it.

> People being "afraid" of each other seems a bit dramatic.

In universities and colleges people are afraid voicing their political opinion, or just disagreeing in general with the mainstream. Not just because they would meet lot of counter arguments, but actual physical violence and even getting expelled from school.

Nobody is defending sexual predators and abusive behaviour. But there is a clear bias towards men when it comes to accusations. You don't have to be a predator to say, or do something in a way where the other person will take it as abuse. You don't have to be a man either, but it would make much easier. Everybody can be in this situation. Just fail to identify a transgender person and use a wrong pronoun and you will find yourself in front of HR so fast that you won't have time to say sorry.

If a joke can get you in trouble so much that you even lose your job just because a woman's feelings were hurt, then there is a problem with the system. Is one person's feeling more important than another's life?

This whole situation is a slippery-slope as there will be always someone being offended by something.

I think the key is tolerance. Understanding that everybody makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect. And when they apologise we should stop the witch hunt. Also we should embrace differences between sexes and not trying blurring the lines.

>You don't have to be a predator to say, or do something in a way where the other person will take it as abuse.

No you don't and this is a problem. Anybody can say something abusive but that doesn't make it right.

>Just fail to identify a transgender person and use a wrong pronoun and you will find yourself in front of HR so fast that you won't have time to say sorry.

Out of all the transgender people I know, they will correct you if you fail to use the correct pronoun OR they will let you know first, that way you don't feel awkward. It is up to you then to follow through with it.

I think there are a vocal few who are super easily offended and too many people are focusing on them. They don't make up the general populace. Just like how not every guy is out to make crude jokes and be offensive. It always seems like the "not every guy" defensive always comes up but it is unfathomable that not everyone is as easily offended as this vocal minority.

>No you don't and this is a problem. Anybody can say something abusive but that doesn't make it right.

Of course it doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it a valid reason to drag that person through the dirt. Especially if something was said between the accused and a third person and the accuser was just eavesdropping on the conversation.

>I think there are a vocal few who are super easily offended and too many people are focusing on them. They don't make up the general populace. Just like how not every guy is out to make crude jokes and be offensive. It always seems like the "not every guy" defensive always comes up but it is unfathomable that not everyone is as easily offended as this vocal minority.

I agree, we are talking about minorities on both sides. Not every man is an abusive predator and not every woman is going to be a snowflake, who will cry abuse over everything a man says.

But as my first comment stated, the problem is that our current society caters to them. They are the ones who will go great lengths to ruin peoples lives, even when it turns out the accusations were false. They pressure companies into firing people. They harass, threaten, deplatform and dox people without thinking about the damages they cause. And when you work with a person like this (and you might not know this) you will be the target very fast, even for the slightest mistake.

And don't forget the bias towards genders. We talk about biases towards women for countless hours, but when someone brings up the biases towards men, that person is kicked out of the conversation. A level playing field goes both ways.

People get kicked out of the conversation because men still have power. A good example of this would be this exact argument. A woman feels uncomfortable about a man and she is a "whiny snowflake" while a man feels uncomfortable about a woman and the world needs to change.

Haha, good job trying to take it out of context. Of course I used a woman as analogy, given the current topic.

Anyone can be a snowflake, but still the main goal is, that people shouldn't be over sensitive when it comes to words or mistakes. It's one thing being targeted and one thing hearing something you don't like and throw a tantrum over it, or destroying another human's life.

> because men still have power.

So you're saying men kick out men for pointing out biases towards men? Yeah, sure.

This was similar to the reaction of the Americans with Disabilities act. After the ADA was passed, the amount of disabled people employed actually decreased. Employers know that hiring an ADA employee would potentially result in an ADA lawsuit, so they avoided hiring them. It was the old well intention law with unintended consequences.

I don't know what makes you think those laws were well intentioned. Politics pass laws because it'll make themselves look good, not to help people.

Yep - which is why the exclusion arguments are very uncomfortable truths. When you boil it down, this whole backlash to sexual assault is just risk to a corporation and it's people... and it's worthless risk when it comes to the bottom-line which is what actually matters at the end of the day (not saying this is right - I think it's horrid!)

When it comes to your livelihood, businesses and people alike will do everything they can to cut-out superfluous risk with no reward. Thinking otherwise is assuming people don't operate in their best interest (they _almost always_ do).

I hate to admit I think this backlash will end up hurting women in the workplace. I think it's going to exclude folks even more than before =(

> As for why this is happening, 36% of men say they’ve avoided mentoring or socializing with a woman because they were nervous about how it would look.

I am curious to hear all reasons.

Additionally, what are they proposing as a solution here? For men to say "I am comfortable to mentor women"? Ok, how do you get them to be at that place? Just saying "it's not acceptable to be uncomfortable" does nothing.

At my workplace you can submit to be a mentor and you get assigned people who would like to learn from your skills and experience. Sometimes these are men, sometimes these are women. You first commit to "be a mentor". Then it is your responsibility and duty to do your mentorship well no matter who is assigned to you. Sure you would get a right to vote against who your mentee is but most of the time the commitment motto is enough to face being uncomfortable.

As it often happens, we went from one extreme to the other.

Some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately, that’s been my lifelong experience. Maybe the response to changing culture also explains the decline in sex for young men and the number of people here saying “here, here” in response to this article rather than being constructive.

This is how change works, people have to adapt. A lot of you are arguing that you should give up rather than deal with changing culture, more for the rest I guess.

Why is "the decline in sex for young men" even relevant here? Most people who argue that "some men truly don’t know how to conduct themselves appropriately" would say that 'behaving appropriately' means that professional interactions among strangers should not be unduly sexualized. So why even bring up sex at all, it seems like a red herring here.

I think they are saying that those categories of men overlap closely. The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'.

I'm unsure how the modern world is affecting both areas simultaneously though. Perhaps cis-hetero women are just not putting up with things that they used too put up with.

> The men that do not know how to interact with women in the workforce are closely overlapped with the men who cannot 'get past 3rd base'.

Given that the major examples are Harvey Weinstein & Co, I believe that would be comically wrong.

I mean, I didn't say the overlap was 100%. That monster would be obviously outside this.

I haven't seen any overlap tbh, but maybe that's just because the low profile cases aren't publicized. The ones you hear from are usually aggressive, successful men who don't seem shy or socially awkward at all. They just show little care for others and do whatever they can get away with. That sounds very different from the incel community, and to conflate the too for rhetoric effect doesn't seem right to me.

By your example, a rapist technically gets past 3rd base too. But that doesn't in any way reflect on the argument made.

Harvey Weinstein is not and was not by any definition a "ladies man". If for example depp or mcconaughey or any other seemingly successful ladies man were the main archetype of the "Weinstein & Co", your point would stand, here it does not.

This is not in support of how well these two groups overlap or not, just a critique of your logic.

> Harvey Weinstein is not and was not by any definition a "ladies man".

He wasn't a socially awkward recluse either, that's the point: he's an aggressive, ultra-successful alpha-male. Looks work, power does too. Weinstein didn't have the looks, but he had all that power.

It's just a totally different demographic. I'd love to see some hints, because I really didn't get anything even remotely close in the media.

Changing culture is significantly harder than learning a new skill set. Culture isn't a defined set of rules that applies to the different people the same each time. People skills are generally one of the hardest skills to learn for the reason. Plainly there's no reason for people to learn most cultural shifts, while this shift is necessary and right, there's also an extreme variance of what's allowed or expected based on age and political leanings. While there are some really obvious lines that get crossed i.e. sexual favors, making comments about physical appearance, blatant sexist comments, most of what's being debated are things like what's appropriate physical contact? Is a supportive tap on the arm allowed? Is hugging a close co-worker allowed? What if a female coworker makes a sexually suggestive comment? What do you do if you are falsely accused and automatically assumed guilty because we're supposed to automatically believe all women? What path is there for redemption for reformed harassers? To suggest that questions like these are easily answered or even that they have a single answer among women isn't justifiable.

It's quite a lot easier to just work in an all-male department. You don't have to tiptoe around, you can say what you think, criticism can be offered honestly. Considerably fewer grudges are held. Stuff just gets done.

My wife works as a PM for another software company with a much different gender ratio, and every day she comes home with stories about backbiting and jockeying for position and incredibly petty feuding that makes the sum of what I've seen in the entire eight years at my employer pale in comparison. Every single day it's more drama, and they drown in communication, with so much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

I'd like to think I would be equally willing to assist people independent of gender, but there are absolutely some formats of activity where I'd be very reluctant to participate with a female, particularly a younger/whatever female. "Meet up for drinks after the conference one on one" is one of those -- I'd do it with a guy, or with someone I knew well, but wouldn't with a random woman in a lot of cases, both because I wouldn't want her to feel potentially uncomfortable, and because I wouldn't want the potential liability. Also I'd be willing to let a guy friend/colleague/etc. use my hotel room to store stuff/use the bathroom/whatever during a conference, but unless it's a peer-level colleague that I know well, would not do this with a woman.

I'd try to compensate by changing the format (adding a third or more person, or meeting at a different time or location), but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a marginal case where it would disadvantage the woman. However, there's no stranger or non-close-friend for whom I'd be willing to accept the liability here.

Then these 60% of dudes are clearly unqualified for management. Please either figure your business out or make room for someone who is capable of management.

And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either.

I note the last one because the two main archetypes that feel this way tend to be older management types that were taught by Mad Men era managers (read overgrown frat boys) or are Mike Pence style ultra-niche religious. Now, again, neither of those are flaws in and of themselves, but if you can't come above those backgrounds and manage a diverse team, then you don't deserve a team.

> And I say this because if a manager is that afraid of accusations, they are either doing something to earn said accusations, are promoting a work environment where false accusations are easily believed, or simply just a crappy manager and probably not good at dealing with many of their male reports either.

And there is the victim blaming.

What the heck.

As a (trans) woman who is non-tech in a tech company I find this stat concerning.

Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard!

PS; not too sure what 'working alone' means in terms of a common work activity?

I'm guessing 1-on-1?

Yeah, I guess so

The problem is people don't know what will offend you so they play the safe route of avoiding all contact. No discussions means no risk of lawsuit, accusations etc.

I used to work at a construction company where the owner was paranoid about sexual harassment lawsuits. For this reason, he specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits. The company never had any issues with it.

'specifically hired overweight older women for all of the administrative staff because he knew this would minimize the risk of sexual harassment lawsuits'

I honestly cannot believe this mindset exists, that's insane. Basing hiring decisions like this is redic. It also assumes overweight older women are not attractive, and idk whether they've seen porn website stats but that's a flawed assumption.

The whole trans thing has become so politicized over the past few years, I suspect a lot of guys would worry that a trans colleague would be far more likely to construe innocent interactions as discrimination.

I'm sorry if there are people who feel this way.

except, there are a whole bunch of factors that play into this.

it's not just men seeing woman as something other than human, it's fear, misinformation, the idea the men are always the predator, mixed with the fact that both legitimate and illegitimate claims look the same i.e he said/ she said, half the time.

I totally get why men are aware that any misstep, even in it's most accidental way could be seen as harassment, and be career ending.

plus, from a outside perspective, a male boss working closely with a younger female is always going to raise eyebrows, even if their relationship is purely work/professional.

woman carry keys in their fists walking home, in fear that they might be attacked.

men avoid being in "compromising" situations with woman in the work place, even if it's just professional.

though, this is just my opinion.

'plus, from a outside perspective, a male boss working closely with a younger female is always going to raise eyebrows, even if their relationship is purely work/professional.'

Hard disagree.

you are allowed to disagree, but from my view/experience that's the standard.

>Just talk to me like a I'm a fellow human, it's not that hard!

I can't/don't talk to anyone at work the way I talk to "fellow humans." When I see friends from work off the clock, that's when I treat them like fellow humans. I can't talk to them like that at the office.

Working in software, I am much more socially reserved and careful in my choice of words than at any of the blue collar jobs I've had. I can see the social pressure, I can read the norms. Telling me just to be me isn't going to work, I'm not _that_ socially oblivious.

people calling it a sensible strategy or solid 'risk assessment' really surprises me.

You are to a large degree in charge of your risk. Proper, fullblown, 100% fabcricated accussations seems exceedingly rare. I've never seen any stats and the anecdotes I hear are often 3rd or 4rd degree.

Be a decent human being and you are probably still more likely to get struck by lightning or die in a car crash.

Meanwhile, the cost of walling yourself off from 50% of your colleagues (or as a manager, to avoid 50% of the workforce) seems like a very high cost to your career.

No one expects to be in a situation until they're in it. It's a Faustian bargain to be sure. There's no good outcome to come of either men sexually harassing women in any situation, and cutting out female coworkers isn't the solution either but plainly this was an expected result. If people are rational their first reaction is to be selfish and protect themselves and their family. In a few years there will be a new normal and things will start changing, but social change always does.

Joe Lonsdale already tried that. Didn’t work out too great for poor Joe!

I have been in 3 different companies in the UK as a developer, and I feel the opposite, men are more keen to help female developers, and are nicer and more patient. Sometimes it even feels kinda pervert.

The study was discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19945514.

Predictable results

Men are economically more powerful than women, because that's what women want, and it's one way men get sex - yup, sex I a commodity that men want, and women have, and the pay gap squares the trade.

We'll end up with frustrated career women, and sexless men otherwise.

We already have sexless men. If you look at the stats, sex for men between 20 and 30 is declining rapidly, while for women it didn't change that much (just probably got more concentrated to fewer men)

Most important thing in modern America is to protect yourself and your reputation from assault as a simple accusation can destroy your life and plenty of people lie. Some rhetoric is not going to change that fact.

No need to lie, it's enough if someone misunderstood the other and it got ugly (HR etc involved).

What a stupid article

Only in America.

Women is very dangerous, be aware.

On serious note, somebody should do a startup which trains men to work with women.

Apparently opportunity is huge. Should be the first slide. 60% of all men...

> which trains men to work with women.

Immediately will be labeled as sexist and forced to close business. You can't win this battle, best way is to not play.

We can just go with euphemism, like “work comfort” and obviously we do it for all genders.

Are you kidding? There's loads of this kind of thing out there already. Just call it something sickening like 'Workplace Wellness' and you are good. Though I think they should borrow one of the existing programs from the US military if they want to get the message through to certain people I have encountered in management. Having a drill seargent bellow at them about it not being ok to molest their secretary might actually work wonders.

We are getting close.

You bait and switch it as a military backed outdoor team-building exercise and wait till everyone is half way up a mountain and can't easily get away before getting a six and a half foot transexual marine to terrify them into understanding the concept of intersectionality.

Lol. I like it.

Do you think I have much of a future in HR consultancy?

Yes. On serious note, it is huge opportunity even as non VC scale biz. It is infinite in nature.

I think the problem lies in gender education in schools and colleges, where people get lost in transition to adult life.

Like hitting on everyone/anyone in college is fair game because there is no power differential, but as soon as people enter workforce, they need to be retrained.

I think the problem could be solved by a rule of no hitting on anyone in the workplace and much shorter working hours. People get horny. If you lock them up in the workplace for their entire waking life you are going to have some fairly predictable issues.

No training needed, just treat us like fellow human beings. It's not a high bar.

What about a supervisor body cam startup? There are a small number of bad individuals which the system would allow you to identify while protecting the innocent ones from false accusations.

Ridiculous. Perhaps these people should go back to school and learn how to talk to others?

Funny story:

A person I know who works for Adobe, interviewed a girl for an entry position job. She was asked questions like "What is the size of RAM? etc". She got hired. They are married now. I dont know but I think this could have gone sideways for the interviewer.

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