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Comment by dx034 | Hacker News Reader

So how long will it take until Asian Phone companies using Android get together to develop an alternative Android ecosystem? They could set it up in a neutral nation with profits going to all companies. So far, these always failed because it was only one company involved (e.g. Amazons app store) but will all major manufacturers involved, it would be much more profitable for developers to be on that app store than on Google's (they could be compatible at the start anyway).

In the end, the one loser from this action is more likely Google than Huawei. And I believe they know that very well but had no alternative but to act this way.

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Most Chinese versions of Android are completely de-Googled[1]- no Play store, no Maps, no GMail, etc. They have their own app store, web browser, and everything else. They are still based on Android, but it's not a stretch to think that most Chinese phone manufacturers could fork the open source project tomorrow.

As soon as Google goes too far against the Chinese government, the manufacturers will receive a notice that Android is no longer welcome as an operating system and they will flip the switch. Most Chinese citizens wouldn't care or even notice.

Other Asian companies are working on alternative OSes in case Google ever "pulls a Google" and kills off Android. Samsung has Tizen, which sucks, but could be better with some work.

[1] I bought a Xiaomi phone with a Chinese ROM and it took three days to get unlock permissions from Xiaomi to put the Global ROM on it that had Google apps. In that time I didn't feel like I was missing anything huge- except for being able to get directions since the maps app didn't have US street maps.

It's also important that WeChat is essentially the "operating system" for a large number of people in China.

In the end, the only superior system Google offers outside of China is Search (and to some degree Mail). Search can be integrated without the need of an app and GMail can be accessed by any mail client. All the other money making products (Maps, Play Store, Pay) could probably be replaced without users complaining much.

Bing's not banned in China, and it's not _that_ bad.

It's not just about Google's own apps, it's about installing and getting updates to other apps from the play store. Additionally, most apps now use the Google play services that Google has moved a lot of Android functionality into to be able to update it faster.

with multiple competing app stores, and even OS modifications (miui) its arguable that taking the google out of android created a much more competitive and vibrant ecosystem in China. Amazon failed where the rest have thrived.

The big problem I have is that what happens when that unlock site goes away?

When I bought my Mi4c, it wasn't getting an update I knew was released. When I ran a packet capture, I found it was trying to hit "udate.xiaomi.com" instead of "update.xiaomi.com". I was eventually able to unlock and reflash the phone manually.

so xiaomi shipped a phone with the wrong hardcoded update URL? How did that work for the rest of their users and not for you? for example if they fixed it at the other end and also enabled udate.DOMAIN it should work for you too?

(Insert obligatory OpenStreetMap plug here.)

>As soon as Google goes too far against the Chinese government

AFAIK, most Google stuffs are already blocked by the GFW, and Google Play is not preloaded on Android phones sold in mainland China. What can Google do to go farther...?

I am not sure why Asian Phone companies would do anything. As far as we see, only Chinese companies might want to. Asia is big and includes a lot more countries than China. Other asian countries are in the same bucket as Europe in moving to custom ecosystem.

Exactly. Original poster is trying to go into hyperbolics. Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath? Which user would like to get a phone without Google's apps on it? This is all looks good on paper as a so called strategy but in real implementation, almost impossible to implement. Consumers will just shift to another Google supported phone.

> Why would LG and Samsung want to participate in this and risk Google's wrath?

As an insurance, so they do not have to be afraid of Google's wrath.

Samsung with their own apps has been hedging their bets that way.... but going all out and forking the OS and building a device (even for test) could get them kicked from the Open Handset Alliance.

It shows how open that alliance is if a test device can get you kicked out of it. Maybe that's exactly the reason why manufacturers would rather team up in an alliance that is truly that and not dominated by a single large player

It said Asian because Samsung is in the same boat, albeit for different reasons (think platform lockout instead of govt pressure). That's why the keep developing Tizen.

I assume that Japanese manufacturers are under a similar threat.

Perhaps the potential profit stream of operating an appstore is also an appealing reason?

It's also likely a pressure tactic of sorts. Samsung shows that it could leave the reservation if it wants to, so Google doesn't push too hard when it comes to standardization, modifications to the base system, and preloaded apps. (For quality and monetization reasons, Google would likely prefer that all versions of Android were shipped as close to stock as possible.)

I could go one step further: Build another open source OS that can run Android app but not Android. Many Chinese companies already tried it (non-open source though) before but been persuaded not to, I guess they're feeling a little bit different now.

The good part is, by building that OS, the domestic tech communities could receive a huge boost.

So far for Huawei, Google's blockage is partly useless. As long as Huawei can sell device globally, they can just build their devices in such way that allowing their users to load custom ROM into it without effect warranty, then their users can just use LineageOS (Huawei's Android UI is a crap anyway) or a Linux distro etc. (Maybe the first hackable phone from a major manufacturer)

BTW: In China, not a single one domestic phone manufacturer I know of ships Google service with their phone. So Google service is largely an non-existence.

as somebody that bought an huawei device from a carrier, if carriers wont sell your devices you are just like dead. and i cannot imagine carriers selling devices that need to sideload google play and stuff.

The dominance of bundled sales by carriers is not a universal practice around the world. In Europe this was even forbidden for long time as it gave the Telco's too much power over the nascent mobile industry.

its not forbidden, i thing it's the way most of the cell phones are sold in europe.

https://shop.a1.net/handys-telefonie/alle-handys/?ProcessTyp...

It is not anymore, it used to be years back. This is why I said 'was'.

No, you are not. I believe you are just speaking from US perspective. A lot of countries in the world don't have this practice of carrier selling phones. (I know for sure for India and China and that's more than 2.5billion people)

> As long as Huawei can sell device globally, they can just build their devices in such way that allowing their users to load custom ROM into it without effect warranty

The number of people who will buy a device without Android just to sideload Android on to it is absolutely miniscule. My girlfriend and parents (who all have Huawei devices) absolutely would not.

It's true. I mean, there are people using freaking bing just because it is the default search engine on Windows.

"Build another open source OS that can run Android app but not Android."

It's not as easy as it may sound like.

There have been attempts:

https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Android_Compatibility

https://github.com/anbox/anbox

https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/04/new-project-brings-andro...

ChromeOS Android container approach is probably the best, but isn't fully open source to my knowledge.

That's not to say that a state actor like China couldn't pull it off. It would actually be quite interesting if the outcome of these developments was significant effort into a Linux distro that runs well on multiple devices, and is capable of also running Android apps seamlessly.

It's doable to a good extent. I had a Blackberry Passport from 2014 that ran BBOS, which was a non-Android OS. Around 2016, BB added a "Android compatibility layer" (not sure how it works), that allowed for the install of APKs for Whatsapp, Instagram and a number of other apps BB users didn't have native equivalents for. Worked fine, but I'm sure app firmware updates caused issues.

Don't club Huawei with Asia. Google, outside China, is a major force to reckon from a consumer standpoint - without Gmail, Play App, YouTube, Android Auto etc., who do you think people will buy these phones. It is easier for Samsung and LG to just sell Android branded phones given it has Google products vs. for Huawei to sell its proprietary OS branded phone without Google.

I'd actually love to jump on a quality phone that's not using the Google ecosystem. Except that I'm not so sure the Huawei ecosystem is less evil.

That's why Huawei would probably benefit from using an independent ecosystem, together with Samsung, Sony, etc. They could set it up in Singapore or Hong Kong to avoid political issues and share the profits. At the same time you get US-critics to buy those phones instead of Google or Apple controlled ones.

Not sure though how inclined the other manufacturers are to work with each other.

Korea and Japan are American vassals on the one hand, and wary of China's growing power on the other.

So I guess that they won't want to "get in bed" with China on this.

There is one small american company that makes those. They have some fruit as their logo...

Why would Samsung want to team up with Huawei on this? Huawei is a major competitor to Samsung; having Google services available on Samsumg phones and not on Huawei ones is a major competitive win for Samsumg. They must be laughing all the way to the bank right now.

A de-Googled Huawei might actually save Samsung's folding phone line. The Galaxy Fold was a PR disaster, whereas Huawei's Mate X had none of those issues in bloggers' hands.

They already have. This only affects the "International Firmware" editions of Huawei phones/tablets. The Chinese editions of these devices are unaffected because those already use AOSP.

I don't think it is in Samsung's or Sony's interest.

so?

China alone is a bigger market for smartphones, than EU + US together.

The US is by far the most lucrative smartphone market. It's not even close.

Most of the smartphone buyers in China are purchasing phones that the manufacturer makes effectively zero net profit on.

When it comes to phones, Apple earns more in profit than every other competitor globally combined. Apple gets half its enormous profit just from the US market. Apple can afford to lose the entire Chinese market thanks to that fact (then they'd only generate a mere $45b in profit and would still be the world's most profitable company).

For another example, while Google is printing massive profit via mobile search thanks to its Android position in the US and Europe, Baidu is losing money in China and has never been able to expand globally (and never will, they're largely hostage to the Chinese market).

If you're Apple or Google and you can only choose one market to participate in, you choose the US. It's where all the margin is, because US consumers provide the largest-wealthiest market by far. Samsung also still actually sells phones in the US, whereas their market share has been entirely wiped out in China due to nationalism and poor Chinese consumers being unable to afford most of Samsung's phones.

Why not? They also built on Android to have one common ecosystem with all the benefits of scale. If Huawei now builds their own App Store, Samsung risks losing customers in countries where Huawei already dominates. Building one together would at least keep the status quo.

Please use some sense. You are suggesting Samsung and Huawei - two of the fiercest competitors to collaborate on an OS? While the Occam's razor argument is that Samsung will just goto Android with Google's apps and bleed Huawei away.

Because of their country of origin. They both are based in democracies and are unlikely to be embargoed like Chinese companies. What we see are symptoms of trade war between China and the west. South Korean and Japanese companies do not share the same role in this story as Huawei.

While I agree that South Korea and Japan are unlikely to face embargos, the trade war is not between China and the West. It's between China and US only. I don't think any Asian country is happy about this as no one wants to have to choose sides.

I tried the Samsung app store briefly on my Android. I didn't last long with it, it was not that great, and reluctantly intstalled Google Play. It's yet another company trying to usher me into signing up, and trading my data privacy. The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?

"The themes app for example, wants access to my contacts. Why?"

To reskin the contacts list. Anything dealing with the contacts list needs permission to do so, even reskinning appearance.

I hadn’t thought about it that way but makes total sense. A new OS that all factories would install on their - now Android - phones, would cause a big blow to Google. We’e already seen ecosystems like Wechat and their impact. That move seems imminent

Why would they want to as it is just Huawei?

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