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Comment by userbinator | Hacker News Reader

I'm someone who actually likes reading standards for fun (sometimes there are interesting things in them), and have read many of them as a result[1], and even implemented parts of some; but I still find Bluetooth, along with WiFi and GSM/LTE very intimidating.

Is there something about wireless in particular that lends itself to this proliferation of complexity? I've read 802.3 (Ethernet) and it was nowhere near as dense and intimidating.

[1] MP3, JPEG, JPEG2000, JBIG2, H.261 to 264, MPEG 1 and 2, USB, SATA, IEEE1284, RS-232, a bunch of RFCs, and too many others to list, those are just the ones I remember reading recently...

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It's an industry standard designed at closed door meetings where you have to pay to get in and pay to read the spec.

It benefits all of the participants to build a big, deep moat where the paying participants have the expertise.

This is how, by the way, warts like this occur: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17402274

Somehow you'd think it would also benefit participants if it was also reliable and fulfilled end user's requirements. It is not theoretically impossible to have wireless headphones with low enough latency for gaming.

It's true that only paying companies (associate membership or higher) can participate in working groups and contribute to the specifications, but once a specifications has been adopted it becomes public.

All of the adopted core specifications, profile specifications, and errata documents are public: https://www.bluetooth.com/specifications/

You should try USB 3.2, which is 1500 or 3000 pages, The original Intel version of USB 1.0 was a nice comprehensible 150 pages.

And that is excluding the Type C, Type A and all other connector Spec.

And there is the newest WiFI 802.11ax or WiFi 6, Even earlier this year as I skim through it, the draft still has 2000+ comments unresolved. ( One reason I am looking forward to 802.11be to fix this mess instead )

Sometimes I do miss the day of parallel port, everything was so simple. That is may be me getting old.

Wireless has a lot of stuff going on. Layer 1 off wireless is split in many different levels.

This, combined with the fact that interoperability is paramount, but there are only a few providers make for complicated standards. The interop between a few providers problems means the standards have to bow to actual usage a lot more.

This applies a lot more to 3gpp (cellular) stuff than WiFi though. Especially because 3gpp is commercial only, is a lot more 'trust the network', and cares about billing. Moreover, the interop is meant to give a pretty seamless roaming ability, whereas e.g. 802.3 is only about working on a single subnet.

Moreover with WiFi, which partially uses time-division (like ethernet) you cannot have two devices sending at the same time. However, unlike old-style shared medium Ethernet, you can have two devices outside of range of each-other, but both reaching your WiFi router. This means the transmissions scramble each other at the router, but the devices can't detect this.

Hence, you cannot do CSMA/CD (collision detection) but need CSMA/CA (collision avoidance). This means you get ACK messages at layer 1 of your protocol.

In general, it might be the Multiple Access model that makes wireless hard.

> Is there something about wireless in particular that lends itself to this proliferation of complexity?

A tiny (but still HUGE) part of this VAST spec is the fact that these bluetooth chips are ruddy frequency hopping radios.

Something that a decade or two ago was only seen in high end military radios.

Frequency hoping is neat but kind of insane.

I much prefer WiFi’s wideband spread spectrum and just letting the user pick a different carrier frequency if there’s too much interference.

what's your favorite standard that you've read?

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