Hacker News Reader

Comment by theshadowknows | Hacker News Reader

Pharmaceutical supply company line worker, warehouse truck loader, dishwasher assembly line worker, gas station attendant. I had blue collar work from 16 until about 30. Under grad then grad school. Technical writer, jr developer, sr developer, architect. It’s been an insane transition. And the biggest part that gets me is when people complain about workload. I try to temper myself because I know my lived experience is vastly different than nearly everyone I work with. But when Jrs complain about having too much to do or something being a lot of work I can’t help but remember unloading hundred pound boxes from the back of a scalding hot truck in the North Carolina summer and chuckle to myself.

View on HN

I never worked as long as you did as blue collar but I did work for a while with decently heavy physical work and it was taxing in a lot of way. The grind could get to you from to time to time.

But for me it was also a type of work where I put in some heavy work and got physically tired and slept well at night without a thought of the job. In my current project I'm in a leading position in some high profile projects and there will be high stakes decision that needs to be taken, there will be drama and opinions and you will need to learn a lot of things in a short time. Even if I would go home at a reasonable time I can still en up googling possible solutions to problems at work in the evening or thinking about how I should reply to an email.

That is mentally taxing in a different way and for me often as equally difficult to cope with as working in a tough physical job all day.

The worst is when you make a decision that will take weeks or longer to play out.

I have been busy when I worked in a factory and had estops going off, but when the shift is over, Not my problem... Although don't make a mess.

>>>make a decision that will take weeks or longer to play out

This is a hardware engineers on going struggle.

For me, proper perspective has been the best help there. You seem qualified enough to be able to find other work if the worst happens, and the worst is unlikely to happen.

This doesn’t mean be lazy. It means relax, and you’ll probably find that you do better work that way.

Unless someone’s life is directly on the line (maybe it is and I’m wrong), the stakes being high is often just a story we’re telling ourselves.

Never worked for a failing startup, huh? Okay sure, you might be able to find a job after it, but when you are trying to keep it going and every decision you make could make or break the company, it's hard not to feel the stress, especially if you really enjoy what you're doing.

Also being one of four people that helped a parent company lose a couple million dollars doesn't feel great either.

Or work for a large company where if you screw up it could result in all of your major clients terminating their contracts and the parent corporation deciding to close an entire department resulting in hundreds of people losing their jobs. That's the situation I'm in right now. Thankfully I'm not TOO high on that totem pole that I feel all the stress in the world, and we're probably only delaying the inevitable in the long run, but it is very difficult to relax.

These all sound like situations that aren’t worth the fuss.

If the person can identify the fuss, then they can ask for compensation and see if they think it’s worth the fuss. In business everything is always at the stress level of results or nothing, but one doesn’t have to be close to the business if you don’t like the stress.

You make it sound as though stress is inherent, versus a product of unsavoriness.

Never worked for the military, huh? Okay sure, you might get fired for a wrong or dumb decision, but you can still live and be fine.

In the military where if you screw up it could result in all of your buddies dying. That was my situation when I was 18.

Listen, it's going to be alright. Breathe. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. It's going to be okay.

Are you the owner/founder? If not, why are you even stressing about the startup's demise?

> But for me it was also a type of work where I put in some heavy work and got physically tired and slept well at night without a thought of the job.

I have a friend who went the other way: worked as a nuclear engineer but eventually got fed up and became a chef (he runs a restaurant in Palo Alto). As he put it to me “when I go home work is over. I don’t have many tasks that span days.”

If you're not already, you should try getting enough exorcise to exhaust you during your off time.

From what I've seen of exorcisms on TV, they certainty do look exhausting.

BSD user?

Undoubtedly there are really hard jobs. I'd put a mover on that list as well, along with oil field worker.

But it seems dismissive to say a dev can't claim burnout because they aren't doing something physical. When a junior dev, I once went into the office 23 days in a row and was usually there until 11 pm or midnight, sometimes later, sometimes earlier. I got burned out and left. It wasn't good for my health or relationships. I bet if you worked hours like that loading a truck you at least would have gotten overtime.

That sounds like a gnarly stretch of work you did. I’ve also experienced burnout and it is nothing to scoff at—this coming from a guy who also did physically demanding work. In terms of negative affect on my life, burnout tops the list.

I’m not the OP but I read the comment as not saying burnout isn’t a thing or that it pales in comparison to blue collar struggle. It was more that the common gripes you may hear at an office—especially from folks whose work history is only office work—tends to make you reflect. At least that’s my experience.

Mental exhaustion is a legitimate issue. But most blue collar jobs are demonstrably worse than most office jobs.

Factory line workers and truck loaders are trying to get into software, accounting, etc., not the other way around.

Ironically one of the most mentally cleansing things you can do is to bust your ass physically then sleep like the dead.

Might not even be a bad idea for larger companies that have the logistical range to get their staff swap collars a week a quarter.

An acquaintance of mine with law degree is a business development person at DHL. At Christmas time, he helps deliver packages. I think that's really cool. Kind of like "everybody codes" (including managers) in engineering at Google. (Is that still true?)

How many of those days and hours were spent inside an air conditioned room with a bathroom and, probably, a kitchen/cafeteria?

I work in engineering for construction - when we were building Bertha's rescue shaft in Seattle the crews worked 5 months straight drilling holes and placing concrete with two crews on 12 hour shifts with only July 4 and Memorial Day off. When we excavated the shaft and repaired the machine we switched to three 8s and ran for almost another year.

Rain or shine, hot or cold, day or night. We worked that job every day. Nobody left until we switched to 8s because guys wanted to work 10s on another job - that's just blue collar work. In fact, that's the type of blue collar work that guys want because the OT pays the bills so you're right about that. The management on the project? Worked 1.5x as many hours as the crew because they would normally cover a shift and a transition. Every one salaried. Nobody left.

What the tech industry complains about for working conditions makes me laugh.

That's quite the story!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_(tunnel_boring_machine)

the OT pays the bills

Another way to look at this is that people are underpaid just enough to get them to work longer, but the knock-on costs of that (impact on health etc.) won't manifest until later and will likely be borne by someone else rather than the current employer. This is equally true for bricklayers and coders.

For context I also did many years of construction and manual work, I'd guess my life has been about 50-50 physical and brain work (of course they're not mutually exclusive). The above is an observation from experience rather than theory.

This seems like essentially a race to the bottom to claim that 'you can't truly be burned out unless you did X terrible job'. For example, your complaints about working conditions would likely make my parents laugh, because they would spend weeks out at sea working essentially 24/7 as fishermen in order to bring home a large enough haul to make the trip worth it. Not to mention the time spent traveling to Alaska and being away from home for months at a time.

Obviously blue collar work is going to be harder than white collar, but that doesn't change the fact that working conditions for each job can still be terrible relative to the type of work it's located in. It's the same for blue-collar work where not all blue-collar work is going to be equally difficult.

All true but blue collar work can mess up your body - either by wear and tear, or an accident. Then not only do you have pain, you also have trouble paying the bills.

A guy recently joined my team whose father was a mechanic and mother a health aide. He said he went into software because he didn't want to hurt and be exhausted like his parents.

I was a carpenter for about 8 years, then decided to go to grad school (defended last week). The prospect of cutting a finger off with a table saw or worse was definitely a factor in that decision. To be fair though, sitting at a desk 8+ hours a day isn’t doing your body any favors either.

Might I ask, did you do grad school in something related to carpentry? And if not, were there recommendations involved in the application process?

I have a similar experience. Food Service -> Framer / Roofer -> Army Paratrooper -> Casino Dealer (You be surprised how hard that job actually is [0]) -> concurrently going to school for software -> Jr Dev -> Sr. Dev

I used to laugh when people would complain about almost anything. Due to my Army experience it makes most people's complaints non-issues to me. But I am starting to realize you have to meet people where they are and have some empathy for them. They only can see it from their perspective. Telling people to suck it up, hasn't been exactly effective for me in this industry. Different environment so different tools are effective.

[0] Not so much physically, but dealing with people for 10 hours a day and most of them are very unhappy (losing money) takes a toll. I'd rather frame houses imo.

Edit: Formatting

Seems this is one thing that nations with compulsory enlistment really have an edge with. It helps offer perspective on top of providing useful life skills, instilling more self confidence, physical training, and so on. Big problem is that, unlike most of these other nations, we tend to actively deploy our armed forces and in ways that are of dubious value which really makes compulsory enlistment a non-starter.

Big reason I mention this is that even if the indulgence you're describing might be the most effective means of getting your tasks done, it makes one wonder about the consequences of this change in society on a macro level.

>> compulsory enlistment

I don't think most of the today's nations with compulsory enlistment would give you an edge at anything. Just the skill of sucking up to doing fuck all for the term you are enlisted for.

I prefer it framed as compulsory or highly rewarded, civil or military service. It’s a pity the US no longer has anything like the WPA [1], for example.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

I can see that being useful. Integrate that with a trade school and you get free workers for a few years who come out of service actually capable of supporting themselves.

At the same time, every nation with military service also has better working conditions for their workforce so...

Compulsory enlistment is awful for the economy because you're not only deploying "average Jr Google Dev" but also "Tenured MIT Professor" or even Stephen Hawking.

You're thinking conscription. E.g. - we go to war and need new people so we just start grabbing any able bodied man, and even woman in some countries, to train up and deploy. Compulsory enlistment is different. What generally happens is that when you reach the age of legal adulthood you are required to enlist for a certain period of time. This is generally 1-2 years. You do your training, serve your time, and are discharged.

During your enlistment you not only trained but also of course compensated and generally very well prepared to lead a productive life. I think there's a lot to admire about this. But yeah - the issue is when these ideals mix with the reality of enlistment turning into deployment in wars of dubious merit, which is why this whole idea is a nonstarter for the US.

But one example of a nation where it does work well is Switzerland. The reason I mention them in particular is because in 2013 there was a referendum aimed at abolishing this enlistment. It failed with more than 73% voting against it. [1] I think it indicates how well it can work and the value it can provide, but of course again the big difference is that Switzerland is also incredibly conservative in the deployment of their military.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Switzerland

its also pointless as the US is bordered by 2 seas and 2 allies (generally speaking). and your not ever going to see a need for them locally (unless your talking about trumps recent border deploys, which half the country is against)

Having worked both types of jobs, I don't see any dissonance here.

In software, I was frequently pressured to deliver more, or in less time, despite my own estimates. There often literally was too much to do. When I didn't meet estimates (mine or my manager's), the consequences often fell on me.

In labor, I work at a speed that's safe and sustainable, and keep going until the job is done. The head position made the estimates, but if they were low, I'm essentially rewarded for this mistake (via OT). I've never gotten in the least bit of trouble for not working fast enough, and occasionally praised for my speed.

As unpleasant as a summer in the south can be, I bet your manager never came by and said "We're in a hurry, so let's just leave half the boxes on the truck, and hope it won't turn out to be a problem later -- customers probably won't even notice". Yet that sort of thing happens all the time in software.

I think there is a different type of stress for a developer. When you work physical labor especially jobs like the ones you describe they can be exhausting but when you clock out that's it, your body and mind is then able to recharge and prepare for the next day. In addition, there are a limited number of variables you have to control for so the mental stress is reduced. This is not to reduce the stress on a job such as a gas line worker or someone for whom a mistake can mean disaster, but those risks are generally known, you dont really have to figure a lot of stuff out.

When working in a field such as software, you take the stress home with you, you are constantly thinking about the job and the fact that if you cant figure out this issue that yo have been working on for 7 days the project is potentially going to fail or they are going to fire you. Many nights you kiss your family good night and then while they are asleep you sit slumped at your desk just trying to get a few more hours in before you collapse for 4 hours of sleep and then get up to do it again. This is obviously not all the time but it is for the most part at some time in all software jobs.

In software and many white collar jobs the concept of work-life balance is really just an idea there is no clear delineation between work time and not work time.

> Many nights you kiss your family good night and then while they are asleep you sit slumped at your desk just trying to get a few more hours in before you collapse for 4 hours of sleep and then get up to do it again. This is obviously not all the time but it is for the most part at some time in all software jobs.

I've been in software for many years, including 5+ years as hands-on developer, and I've never ever stayed up this late to do anything. I've worked in startups, including failing startups. Maybe i'm just naturally zen. My career is doing great btw.

Sounds like that's a benefit in your favor then, in that you can really grind it out when necessary whereas some of your coworkers haven't ever had to push themselves really hard (and thus can't).

Now, in an ideal world, you would never need heroes in an office environment, but I get that shit happens. And there's also been plenty of times in my career when busting my ass was directly tied to faster advancement (and serious monetary rewards), so I definitely don't regret any of the times I really chose to push myself hard to accomplish something.

I have to agree with others that mental and physical workloads are really different. Also, as the article mentions, you're getting graded more on 'political' ideas and beliefs instead of more objective concrete results. If you unload the truck quickly, that is measurable. Performance results are different to each observer when it comes to 'mental' workloads like writing code and delivering features. I miss that sense of objectivity from blue-collar jobs.

Can only agree. Was working 70h a week on average I think. I had multiple several weeks at 90h in succession. Became central to the team because I was fixing everything around me. Yet they would see me as extremely disorganized and unfocused (which was just the result of the immense load that was put on me). They set up control procedures on me (which I think were illegal) with absolutely no respect for my work-hours for the sake of treating everyone on the team according to the same standard. People who earned almost twice as much and worked twice as less and who were supposed to be my peers (lean management) also offloaded part of their work onto me and and bragued about how it wasn't about the number of hours you'd pour in but to get the job done.

I left. 2 months after a colleague told me that "velocity" was the new word the managers had in their mouth. 6 month later I got a call from another colleague telling me he was about to leave as well and now wanted to punch another guy. What's funny is that I want to punch them both because they used me as a terrain for a proxy war (I don't really want to punch them, but when I heard those words it made my day and I'm still giggling as I'm writing this). I was also told that the persons who replaced us took 6 months to build something that would have taken us 2 weeks. They recently started an overtime hours program with the company's employees.

I left. I left.

Edit: I'm somehow considering a blue colar job.

>Edit: I'm somehow considering a blue colar job.

I somehow feel like I should become a farmer so I can have access to higher quality food...

For me personally blue collar work, loading stuff, offloading stuff, hacking road covered with ice with bare hands for days was a lot easier than programming, project management and leading a team. So it's not so black and white for everyone.

It sounds like we have similar trajectories. I went from construction laborerer in summers of HS and for 2 years out, into commercial real estate maintanence FT during undergrad and grad, then to tech writing which transitioned to UX design, then into development in my late 20s and through the levels there, up to right now as lead/architect.

You’re right—our experiences are pretty unique especially in places like the Bay Area. In fact, you are the first person I’ve ever met with a similar background. I was stoked to read your comment—“I’m not the only one.”

And like you noted, no matter how brutal work can get now, it takes just a bit of reflection to recenter myself. This is almost like a dream. I’ve been very fortunate to wind up where I did. Most folks where I’m from are still busting their asses working those real hard jobs.

I think having any sort of past that gives you perspective on your work is valuable. I spent 5 months working in a kitchen in my teens and that lit a fire under my ass to get better grades and get into University. I then spent 8 months co-op at a government organization and that lit another fire under me that a cozy government desk job would turn my brain into mush, so I needed to strive for more than something cozy.

6 years into my programming career and I still think regularly about those jobs any time I feel annoyed by the assorted issues/people I have to deal with. It gives me perspective that I'm really not working... I'm being given money to have fun learning and doing cool stuff.

The strangest thing is, the pay is inversely proportional to how hard the job is. If you spend all your working day picking up stuff until your back breaks, you can expect a minimum wage in some parts of the world. If you spend your day sitting in front of a computer tapping at a keyboard, you can expect - well, a lot of money, comparatively. Even more if you spend your day talking on the phone and meeting people.

It's topsy-turvy and the people at the high end of the wage scale have very well honed excuses: "but, I have specialised knowledge that I worked very hard to acquire" etc.

Well, I got specialised knowledge that it took me a long time and effort to acquire. It's still unfair that the people who make the stuff I eat, the stuff I wear, the stuff I use to acquire that specialised knowledge are paid a pittance and I can live comofortably off their backs, really.

The world is such an unfair place and the people who benefit from that the most aren't even aware of it.

It's not strange at all. What does almost every human being on earth have in common with Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos? a back! If all you're willing to do is break your back then good luck standing out from the masses. You are competing with 7 billion other humans after all. Meanwhile software? I doubt there are more than 10 million software developers in the entire world.

So tell us more of your story, your perspective. I worry our world is going to be full of people who worked hard in often but not always blue collar jobs and then suddenly there wasn't enough work and people start losing their jobs and there's not much better to replace it (whether it's automation or amazon wiping our your local business, it's the same end result).

I'd expect people who that happens to to be really angry, looking for someone or something to take them out of it.

There's a big difference between physical work and knowledge work. Entirely different types of pain.

I've worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week in construction, it's only physically hard, it's only physical pain. Solving problems and fighting through headaches, loading context into your head, there's real pain, but it's a mental pain instead.

It's easy to move a box 1,000 times with little change in quality. It's not easy to design great software when tired or overworked.

It's _not_ easy to move a box 1000 times with little change in quality.

Before software, I did a bunch of construction. Some of those tasks were highly repetitive. ("Remove this commercial firewall that's 45 feet tall and 200 feet long". "Fill these 500 holes with metal plugs, weld them in, then grind them smooth", "remove 500sq feet of carpet on concrete, and get the glue up too")

If I paced myself and went carefully, my quality stayed high. If I rushed, quality went down. If I worked too long, quality went down.

One can move boxes, but... one can also:

  - damage the box by careless handling
  - loose the order (if the order is important, which it usually is)
  - hurt oneself in the process
  - hurt someone else in the process. (If its 1000 boxes, you're prob using a forklift or at _least_ a pallet jack)

and more.

(edit: formatting) "blue collar" jobs have quite a lot of room for optimization and process management, just as software jobs do.

(though, yes, the _scale_ of moving boxes vs. working on a system that will be used by thousands/millions is very different.)

You’ve obviously never been in the position to do the former as a requirement for paying bills... sure, lifting the boxes (or nailing the shingles, or digging the trench) is easy, it’s getting up and continuing to do it day-in and day-out that takes persistence, a strong constitution, and grit that isn’t present in many/most of the software devs that you’re likely to encounter In the workplace.

I grew up on a farm. Almost anyone can adapt to hard work if it's a necessity.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com