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Comment by dfxm12 | Hacker News Reader

Study participants on the ultra-processed diet ate an average of 508 calories more per day and ended up gaining an average of 2 pounds over a two-week period.

Is this a fair trial? Popular science [0] claims that ~3500 calories equals a pound. Well, 508 extra calories a day for 14 days = 7112 calories, or about 2 pounds worth of calories.

Edit: whoops! I was missing the fact that the people in the trial controlled how much they ate themselves. I incorrectly assumed that they were given the food.

0 - https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/weight-loss/in-...

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It is calories in calories out, as always, but the point is that the processed diet drives more calorie consumption. The same people were given both diets and told to eat as much or as little as they wanted. They consumed more calories when given the processed diet, and thus gained weight.

"calories in calories out"

That's too simple. Some foods digest better than others. I can eat the same calories from potato chips or a lentil dish but my digestion and later on weight change will be very different.

I once tried to look up on google scholar what difference different digestibility made, and if I remember correctly with respect to fiber (the main kind of thing that reduces digestibility) you have to eat like twice the recommended amount of fiber just to reduce the total calories by like a 100. It was something like 80g of fiber, which isn't something you can easily eat without restructuring your whole diet. So the effect is there, but the way you explain it neglects to ask how big the effect is.

Food is much more complex than fiber vs. calories. I am not a scientist there but I observe myself and others a lot. When I eat certain foods I can eat a lot without weight gain, my digestions works, my mind works, I go to the bathroom regularly. When I eat junk food, I gain weight, I feel sluggish and I often get constipated. Unless I am very special, which I don't think I am, I assume other people experience the same thing.

>Some foods digest better than others. I can eat the same calories from potato chips a lentil dish but my digestion and laster on weight change will be very different.

The food that exits your body without being digested falls into the "calories out" category. "Calories in calories out" does indeed represent a simple thermodynamic truth, although unfortunately the "calories out" component can be rather difficult to determine in practice.

That way makes sense but I don't think the people who use that phrase mean it that way. Usually they seem to say "a calorie is a calorie no matter where it comes from".

While no individual person may deliberately do this, the gestalt does a motte & bailey with this, where "calories in = calories out" means that people are wrong to think about how different calories affect the body differently and interact with all the feedback loops in the body and dieting is just a matter of applying willpower harder and eating less, until you challenge it, at which point it's suddenly just a tautological thermodynamic truth that apparently is being thrown into the discussion for basically no reason and with no particular purpose in mind.

It really needs to just be retired. At its best its an unhelpful tautological statement, at its worst, inflammatory and thought-terminating. Not much reason to keep dragging it in to every diet discussion.

calories out in a nice consistency and fragrance can make my day

poo's consistency, regularity, and odor, matter

Yep. Very true.

There are additional factors on both the in and out side, but they all work in favor of losing weight. In other words, there is a maximum amount of energy in the food you eat, and a minimum amount of energy required for sustaining your being and physical activity. There simply is is no way around this.

> but the point is that the processed diet drives more calorie consumption

My main gripe with this line of argument is that people rarely take price into account. It's pretty expensive to eat 2,000 calories of fresh food vs. 2,000 calories of junk food. I don't think it's some intrinsic quality of the food that's causing people to gain weight. I think many people who struggle with weight will eat as much as their money can get them, and your dollar goes a lot farther when you're buying junk food.

I also think we have a serious affordability problem when it comes to things like fruits, vegetables, lean meat, etc. People say fruit is cheap and sure, you might be able to get an Apple for $1, but that doesn't get you many calories. You need to fill out your diet with a lot of stuff like rice and beans if you're trying to eat cheap AND healthy. It's even worse if you look at prepared food, e.g. $11 for a 400 calorie salad at Panera. Assuming all your calories come at the same cost, you're spending $1,600 per month on food.

A fresh salad shouldn't be a luxury that only the rich can afford, but that seems to be the current state of affairs.

> I don't think it's some intrinsic quality of the food that's causing people to gain weight.

This study seems to suggest that there is some intrinsic quality that causes them to eat more of it, and thus gain weight.

I'm not saying that money isn't a concern (it is). But the money concern doesn't negate the intrinsic qualities.

I actually used to lose more weight when I was really poor than I am now. I'd buy like a single Totino's pizza at 660 calories for around a $1 and I could make that plus maybe a sandwich or a burrito from Taco Bell or something last me all day. Probably had about 1200-1400 calories a day most days, and spent $3 or less.

Now I'm spending like $10-20 a meal for two meals, and I'm probably consuming well over 2000 calories a day, probably 3000 a lot of days, eating things like Poke and Mediterranean salads and the like (not exclusively, I have unhealthy meals also).

I realize I am just anecdata and not representative of poor eating habits in general. Studies seem to suggest that was an anomaly.

I had Totino's pizza again the other day. Still good, still can get them for $1.50 or less. Just seems like I need to eat a lot healthier as far as food quality now, at least on average.

On the other hand, your body seems to want to eat more junk food.

So your body wants 1492 calories of fresh food, and wants 1492 + 508 = 2000 calories of junk food.

I also think there are obvious optimizations you can do.

compare whole food vs junk calories for say frugal lentils vs expensive chocolate and you might invert your formula.

Reminds me of the time I was eating whole plant vegan food. We went to Nandos Peri Peri, a famous Peruvian chain. I ordered salad for like 8 or 9 bucks, but was extremely hungry when I got back to my desk. So I checked the calories on their menu, and the salad had 40 calories.

Not so much it seems [0]. The actual consumption of calories appears dependent on the source of the calories and what you eat those with.

0: https://www.1843magazine.com/features/death-of-the-calorie

> Popular science [0] claims that ~3500 calories equals a pound.

Kevin Hall, one of the people behind this study, goes to some length explaining why he thinks it's a bad rule. He came up with another that he likes explaining, IIRC it's 10 calories per pound per day. I can't remember where I heard him talk about this, it might have been this talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPi1LQHBWBk, he's pretty good at public speaking and explaining.

Point of the study was to show that "eating a diet made up of ultra-processed foods actually drives people to overeat and gain weight compared with a diet made up of whole or minimally processed foods".

Eating easy to acquire, tasty food drives weight gain over more difficult to prepare, more expensive, less tasty food.

I don't think your whoops is that much of a whoops.

Many things tend to have natural portion sizes.

People will tend to go for 1 burger, or 1 chicken breast.

I suppose processed food would be more likely to have a natural portion size, could the weight loss then be explained by that portion size being too large, and the natural diet allowed people to better choose their own portion?

Isn't that the point? Calories are calories, ultra-processed or not. But people eating processed foods will end up eating more calories over all.

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