Comment by bugsy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bugsy | Hacker News Reader

Figure out what sort of looks and cultural qualities you like in a wife/girlfriend. Travel to that country and live there for a couple months staying in hostels or couch surfing. Meet girls. Extend the 2 months as long as needed, switching countries if there are issues. Marry foreign girl. Stay in her country where you now have a spouse visa. Start new life.

The reason for this advice is because you said "I'm sick of corporate America and all its bureaucratic shenaningans, where I'm only learning the wrong way to get things done. I want out." and you also said you didn't have any ideas for new products or interest in starting your own company. So move to a place where everything is different and that should be sufficient challenge to keep you interested in life. Bureaucracy might be the same, but it's going to be a different kind of bureaucracy.

I also strongly recommend you find a girl with the exact opposite personality as you. If you are introverted, she should be extroverted. If you are analytical and cautious, she should be free spirited. There are actually studies that have shown the exact opposite Myers-Briggs personality type is an ideal match since you'll complement each other very well as a unit, creating a balanced unit facing the world. So if you are a INTJ programmer she should be a ESFP party girl. You might say gosh but we have nothing in common, I can't relate to her way of thinking at all. And it turns out that's exactly what is best. Rather than stay at home surfing the net or playing video games or whatever she'll drag you out to parties or art openings where you'll meet some ambassador or Nobel Prize winner or what not.

Now we're sidestepping this entirely, but I never really understood that sentiment. Do people really have some sort of ideal spouse image inside their head and then seek out someone to fit? That doesn't fit with my version of reality.

Could you link to these studies? I seem to recall reading the exact opposite a little while ago (similar people do better together), but I'm not sure where I read that either.

As a practical matter, it seems to me that an INTJ would have a hard time meeting an ESFP since they would not enjoy the same activities and would not cross paths too often.

Socionics, which is a Jungian typology that's similar to but different from MBTI developed primarily in Russia, provides some of the evidence for this. The types in Socionics don't map one-to-one onto MBTI types, but the general idea of what the grandparent is saying is supported by the concept of "dual" types within Socionics. The basic idea behind a duals is that you get along best with people who share your attitudes/proclivities, but have complementary strengths/weaknesses within those dispositions. And yes, meeting duals is often pretty hard, especially for certain pairs, because they move in different social circles and environments.

It's very interesting stuff and it seems to me like it's onto something, but it's still pretty fringe, and has not been convincingly statistically validated yet. I'm very interested in formalizing these notions and subjecting them to statistically well-founded empirical tests. Right now there's a lot of enthusiasm for Socionics in Russia, but not much work in the Western world. Email or IM me if interested in chatting about this.

Also, since it's so new, beware of crackpottery... there's some people who claim absurd things like being able to determine someone's dominant Socionic type just by seeing a photograph.

Kiersey cites them in his book, which I don't have a copy of right now. They tested couples and their satisfaction with marriage, and then formulated type recommendations. This is also how the career counseling angle works. They actually test people in various careers and then find who is happiest and most successful, and this is what forms the basis of recommendations for career counseling based on MBTI results. It's not subjective but based on what tends to work out well in terms of happiness between people in relationships and between person and career in large populations.

For relationships the results are sorted not by the most common pairings, but the most successful.

As far as INTJ meeting ESFP, it does happen. People meet in bars, get references from others, meet in church. Perhaps INTJ is tutoring math to ESFP who is studying to be an elementary school teacher and they start dating.

In a relationship this is a pretty good entrepreneurial husband/wife pairing as well. Husband makes the product, wife does sales and marketing (ESFP specialty) and finds out from customers what they really need. ESFP in this case will help him understand and interface with the bureaucratic mentality, and also provide a front face and extremely enthusiastic explanations of his incredible value to the company he works for, or the investors who are funding him, or whatever he is up to. She'll also naturally bring him into contact with these investors, partners, or mentors and massively leverage his life opportunities, which will lead to a lot of success and happiness.

The world is not made for INTJ or INTP and does not understand either of them. The right partner can and will completely solve this problem.

With opposite pairings, there is no friction or stress from one trying to change the other because they are so different that sort of change is thought impossible, it would be like an elephant trying to change a giraffe into an elephant.

OK, finally found a list of studies that discuss complementary type matching.

http://www.capt.org/research/couple-mbti.htm

Liberty's dissertation on attitude-antagonistic coupling covers his research with couples who have the worst-scenario matching, an example of which would be INFJ and ENFP getting together. These pairings will generally make each other completely miserable.

May I comment, that it's disingenuous to travel for the purpose of looking for a life partner? For all you know, you'll have met the partner of your dreams at the bar down the road after you get back from your travels, because you are full of stories and invigoration.

This is advice specific to his particular situation. His comments about a particular style of corporate bureaucracy indicate a mismatch between his temperament and that culture. But he doesn't want to work for himself. This means a long term move to a different culture is in order. To make that permanent if desired, foreign marriage is a good way to obtain the permanent right to work overseas. It is much more difficult for US citizens with tech skills to emigrate to other countries than is the reverse, but marriage bypasses all of that. The advice on personalities is because otherwise he will either go for a random choice that will be a bad match or foolishly pick someone of similar temperament, which in his INTJ case will doom both of them.

For the record, I never said I didn't want to work for myself, just that I wasn't ready to start my own company. And I don't think corporate culture is unique to the US, despite my phrasing as "corporate America."

I'm really in shock by your comment about using relationships between human beings so blithely, and I'm afraid it shows a naivete about how world immigration works. Many other places are not more difficult to immigrate to, I use the Working Holiday as an example as a way to get your foot in the door.

Want to move to the Netherlands? As a U.S. citizen apply to the Friendship Program, prove you can support yourself for 5 years and get residency.

Want to move to Mexico? Show them you have $1000 in your account every month and get residency.

Want to spend a year in Australia, New Zealand? Working holiday visa for US citizen under 30. (more options if you're not from the U.S.).

Want to spend a year or more in Europe? Apply for a research or arts visa.

Some people do not live their lives looking for a wife (or husband in my case) and to suggest to a 24 year old that he find the perfect fit as if he were buying a Filipino wife from a catalog who also likes dogs and long walks on the beach is irresponsible.

(Oh, and want to move to the U.S.? Good luck doing that as easily as any of the ways mentioned above)

You are very defensive about this. It is not advice to you or anyone else here other than the OP, and it's advice specifically based on what he mentioned. He is introverted and an engineer, dissatisfied with his culture. He has done travel but not gotten much enjoyment from it. My recommendation is to move to another culture and resettle there. I also have advise for him to get involved in a relationship, which will really help with his life enjoyment if he picks someone the exact opposite on the personality spectrum, especially given his type which is prone towards holing up and doing research or engineering.

Since he will be moving to another culture this means his most available girlfriends will be someone overseas. Should this lead to marriage it then becomes a good way to remain in the culture.

It has nothing to do with mail order brides or race betrayal or whatever you are freaking out about. It has to do with a complete package of advice for this one person and his circumstance. It is not meant to apply to you or to people in general.

Thanks. I'll take your suggestion to experience something different, although I find it curious that you chose to frame this as relationship advice.

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