/e/ plans to sell refurbished smartphones with Google-free Android | Hacker News Reader

/e/ plans to sell refurbished smartphones with Google-free Android

liliputing.com

92 pointsmmastrac73 comments

Odd brand name. I thought it was a 4chan forum.

That said, I'm glad someone is taking the baton on this challenge, and I wish them the best.

Naming themselves e.foundation is one thing, but explicitly naming it "/e/" does seem a bit odd.

For reference for those unaware (likely many of you), /e/ is the 4chan board dedicated to 'ecchi' content, where ecchi is loosely defined as a 'slang term in the Japanese language for playfully sexual actions' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecchi).

Apart from the name, will be interesting to see how well they can succeed with a "Google-free Android", which is much easier said than done.

Perhaps it's a reference to the type of content you're intended to consume using this phone... somewhat like how the private browsing mode of browsers has been called "porn mode".

Aha! ...Surely enough, seeing creative memes and jokes like this is part of the reason for me to be online... Now some 4chan denizens have already started making NSFW memes about this project, and I genuinely believed it was a just a meme initially.

But what an unfortunate name it is... You absolutely cannot be associated with these things if you don't want your project to be the next victim of some trolls' plans for the post-modern performance arts or drama, e.g. [0], [1], or [2]. I hope they'll pick up a better name soon.

[0] Don’t be fooled by Apple ads that tell you to bend your iPhone 6

https://www.dailydot.com/upstream/4chan-iphone-6-bend-prank/...

[1] 4chan is at It Again With Their Trolling of iPhone Users

https://cheezburger.com/316165/4chan-is-at-it-again-with-the...

[2] A split within the Tox project

https://lwn.net/Articles/651003/

> "The Tox project was started in mid-2013 by users on the 4chan message board."

They could have called it eOS or something, in homage to the E foundation as well as the Homeric goddess of dawn... although maybe the Apple legal team might have had something to say about it.

A lot of people shorten elementary OS to eOS: https://elementary.io

Perhaps Ephemeral OS then.

> Apart from the name, will be interesting to see how well they can succeed with a "Google-free Android", which is much easier said than done.

I tried and I really wanted to like it - but while I could easily replace Gmail with Outlook (or use the AOSP mail app), replacing Play Store with Amazon Appstore provided a very sub-par experience, and using apkmirror almost felt like piracy.

I think this would be less of a concern since this service is really only of interest to people who specifically want to avoid Google Play Services in general. The Amazon app store presents the same kind of privacy challenges, only just not as deeply integrated with the phone.

I'm slowly moving my current Android phone to a mix of web-based apps (Uber PWA is good) and native apps released via F-Droid.

It's also terrible for searchability. Love the mission, hate the name

I think rebranding as slashy-slash would be ideal, for searchability if nothing else.

> slashy-slash

That sounds like some kind of comical-violence.

SlashEslash!

See, I'd assume that was a slashfic website.

...

I'm noticing a theme here.

Slashy McSlashface?

I literally cannot find them using search engines, I always need to find somebody who linked to them in a blog post or article.

Google-free Android already exists, it's called Lineage OS

So, What's the difference between this and LineageOS?

One thing I noticed is that Lineage OS (and others) pings Google servers to check that the internet connection works. Which was hilarious to find out in China, where I'd connect to Wifi and it'd tell me I have no internet.

You can disable this check through ADB and then go manually into Firefox and go to http://detectportal.firefox.com/ to open up wifi login portals. It's a bit of drag - but it works

It's crazy to think Google knows when every Android user logs into a wifi.. I'm not sure how much info can be inferred from the ping - but still

You can also keep the check enabled but change the pinged URL via adb[0]. The check expects a HTTP 204 response which can be easily set up on a personal vps using apache or nginx.

[0] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/186993/captive-p...

As the Firefox domain name you mentioned above, the purpose is to trigger Captive Portal login pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal

Basically all browsers / OSes do the same thing to work with it.

Lineage OS use Google DNS a lot of time.

Only Android 9 has a feature to easily change DNS to avoid Google tracking.

IIRC, it uses microG to emulate some Google services so that you can have push notifications without installing the play store. Otherwise, you have to go without for some things.

Also IIRC, microG requires you to allow signature spoofing, which has always creeped me out a tiny bit. I don't understand android well enough to fully understand the possible risks of that.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Well, LineageOS itself doesn't use microG, because the LineageOS developers seem as creeped out by signature spoofing as you. Stock LineageOS just goes without those Google services, so programs that need them won't work. microG make their own fork of LineageOS called LineageOS for microG that comes with signature spoofing enabled and microG installed, but it's a different product and not supported by the LineageOS developers.

The big difference is that they are creeped out by it while understanding exactly what it is for. They willfully limited user freedom (especially as it applies to being free of google) in their base distribution for reasons that don't make sense.

It means a malicious app can pose as a legit app and pass the signature check.

However, it's also necessary for the microG services to pose as the Google services.

When you use the microg lineage build does that only fake the check for microg or does it also allow any other app to?

MicroG claims that it is disabled during normal usage and should pose no security risk.

You can look at the patch that makes it possible, it's not just that they claim this is the case. It is the case.

I agree, I was trying (usuccessfully) not to take a position in the microG - Lineage OS controversy.

Fundamentally the controversy is about what users should be able to do, not whether or not the proposed patches do what they claim. Or if it is, that is a part of that particular discussion that I missed.

I am not well versed in the topic, but as far as I understood Lineage OS has a strong policy not to circumvent security measures in Android.

Liked from microG FAQ

https://review.lineageos.org/c/LineageOS/android_frameworks_...

Apparently one of the given motivation from Lineage OS is that it can break API compatibility, I am definitely far away from my competence so I won't try to summarize more.

I think the reason is because LineageOS is listed as an approved Google ROM which passes the safetynet tests that google added to block custom roms. Some apps use safetynet to block users who have higher levels of access to their system. Allowing microg to work would put the google tick of approval at risk.

I'm guessing they wanna do a customer support and actually have things like bug fixes, OTA updates, etc? On the other hand, lineage is a little bit buggy here and there and the experience differs depending on the phones, which makes it more appropriate for hobbyist instead of non tech-savvy end-user

The main difference is not in the OS itself, but in the services around.

/e/ wants to provide a private set of services such as e-mail, files, etc.: https://e.foundation/e-solutions/

security and userfriendliness. as far as i can tell lineageOS is stock android as released by google with a few fixes for obvious problems and to make it work on several devices.

lineageOS is also not entirely google free as far as i know. it only does not contain the non-free google apps, like the market, maps, etc..., but there still may be code to call home and what not.

/e/ specially not only removes hidden google stuff but adds userfriendly tools and utilities and works on integrating them. (for example lineageOS does not come with f-droid or other trustworthy markets preinstalled)

but there still may be code to call home and what not

where?

See u/geokons comment above.

I love the idea of this, but what's the market?

Wouldn't the people interested in this kind of thing mostly be capable of doing this themselves, i.e., not willing to pay the premium?

As people (including geek types) age, they tend to wish for simpler, more functional technology. They may still care about privacy, but may prefer more support and ease-of-use. That is likely there market.

Unfortunately, I think it is the current generation of geek types that will care most about privacy, and so they may be a good bit ahead of their market.

no, i am using lineageOS and the amount of work i need to put into it to make it usable is a lot. there are issues that drive me mad (for example lineageOS does not allow me to completely disable mobile data, something even most otherwise horrible chinese android phones support)

i don't have time for this. my phone is a tool and not a toy. i don't want to spend hours evaluating apps just to find one that works. i'd gladly pay something for someone to give me a trustworthy experience.

I find flashing firmware on mobile phones(and TV) more stressful than replacing CPU in PC (or BIOs flashing). I guess replacing MOBO/CPU is simpler and less costly than bricking whole device.

I am interested and capable and have been planning on making a google free android build when i have the time. If this works out i could instead use that time to write or work on my other projects instead.

The cheapest model is 279€...I think they are missing the point here. The audience which is ready to pay those prices, won't buy refurbished phones...

https://e.foundation/e-pre-installed-smartphones/

A family member, in her 30s who isn't a tech-head by any means, sent me an email saying she'd moved to ProtonMail. It's not unreasonable to think that at some point, she'd be interested in a refurbished phone w/ Google stripped out, instead of paying $1000+ for a phone whose biggest features are their always-listening voice assistants.

i'd love if they get brand new midlevel phones and re-sell them for a premium with /e/ preinstalled.

Is that not what they're doing? If they did follow your plan, the phones they sold would be "refurbished phones".

Is the proprietary parts of the phone (such as the cellular modem) still supported with firmware updates?

When you buy a refurbished phone from a third party, you are usually buying a broken phone that a customer returned under warranty or traded in. These phones tend to boot up OK and pass startuo health checks, and then crash or have component failures (battery, mic, etc) within a few hours or if the weather gets hit or humid.

On the flip side a refurbished item was inspected by a human and deemed to be functional. A new item was probably last touched by a robot.

I've always been more concerned about hidden damage: something has been stressed significantly, but has not yet broken. This has ended up coming true on a refurbished phone I purchased: things seemed to rapidly wear over time. The microphone was imperfect, the reception was oddly poor (I would guess something was not correctly reassembled?), and the actual glass on top of the screen was replaced with something that was not gorilla glass. The adhesive used to re-seal the back was also poor, and quickly came loose. I realize that not every one who purchases a refurbished phone will have these problems, but they are still a risk. And they can happen out side of the warranty period, leaving no recourse. Buying refurbished can be a good option (especially as it can be cheaper for a technical person to just do necessary repairs himself), but buyer beware.

And manual testing is so much more reliable than automated testing, right?

For hardware? I'd say it probably is, yeah.

There are lots of functions in the modern cellphone. I am sure they are checked on the factory (or by parts manufacturer), and I don't think people who refurbish phones test them all. Examples I can think of:

- Microphone and button on your 3.5mm jack

- Both Bluetooth data rates

- Every special function of MicroUSB connector (like MHT and whatever else you might have there)

- Second microphone (used for noise cancellation)

- Low-light camera performance

- Flash memory spare cells

- Thermal stability (does it overheat?)

- Battery capacity

- Every frequency band works

I can believe that manufacturer-refurbished phones are probably tested fairly comprehensively -- after all, the same people designed the original testing procedures.

But would an unrelated store do a comprehensive cell phone test? Or are they just going to turn the phone on, make sure that the screen looks fine, make a single call (in the nice, quiet office not far from the cell phone tower) and call it done? Somehow I suspect the latter.

I have bought a few used phones, and there is always something quirky that makes you wonder if you got a lemon. Sometimes it is just existing manufacturing faults, but how can you know?

An example: the WiFi connectivity is unexpectedly poor on a second hand phone, which could be caused by dozens of different issues, and some of those issues could be due to being dropped, liquid damage, poor remanufacturing, or component drift...

We bought a refurbished PC recently, and while upgrading the SSD, I noticed a shield around the CPU was completely misfitted: manufacturing fault or refurbishment error?

Do you prefer to deploy a new software to your servers by manually copying the bytes, or using a robot?

If they offer warranty, who cares?

I use a Xiaomi Redmi S2 purchased in China. Simplest way to run G-free and its damn fine equipment. #justsaying

Hmm; would I rather Google have access to my data, or the Chinese Government?

Soon you can have both!

Also, the American government/5E.

I know for sure that world politics is truly a very grim state of affairs when I view the American government as less of a threat than Google or China.

I'm on a redmi purchased in China and I eventually switched to lineage because the people's app store didn't always have what I need.

"people's app store didn't always have what I need."

This gave me a chuckle.

i wiped the preinstalled OS as soon as i got a chance. the constant nagging to connect to their cloud services was disturbing. and i wouldn't trust any chinese market. the level of spyware/adware in those is sickening.

I was horrified on installing netguard that Xiaomi phones ping their own servers (on AWS) as often as Google does theirs. It's depressing what the 'smarphone' age has come to be.

How is this better than buying a refurbished phone yourself and flashing microG+lineageOS on it?

How is Dropbox better than rsync+vps? A lot of innovation in tech consists of making things that are straightforward for a technical person to do and making them trivial for an ordinary person to do.

In the same way that hiring a dog-walker isn't "better" than walking the dog yourself. You're paying to save yourself time and hassle.

I've been modding phones via XDA forums since the Windows Mobile 6.1 days. It's much easier to brick your phone when flashing a ROM today than it was 5 years ago. OEMs today are much more zealous about locking down phones to prevent installing anything but factory ROMs.

That said, 279 EUR for a 2016 Galaxy S7 is steep; I'd need to know if the phone has a fresh battery before taking the plunge.

I wish they included models with removable batteries, but I think the last Samsung phone to have it was the Galaxy Note 4 in 2014.

Why don't they support the Samsung S8, when they support the S7 and S9? How odd.

I own a s8. There are no working custom ROMs for it, samsung decided to make that particular phone unusable without their stock build. I will not buy Samsung again.

Hey, do you know what the technical problem is? And thereby also what the change in the S9 is that allowed it to happen again?

Edit: Good old XDA, it never changes. From a thread about an unofficial Lineage build:

"/* What’s working /

Audio

Bootanimation

Brightness Level

Bluetooth

Microphone

MTP

Wi-Fi

LED

All sensors except fingerprint reader

SD Card

Capacitive buttons

/ What’s not working /

Bluetooth audio

RIL (calls, sms, microphone, data) works only in first boot

NFC

Camera

Fingerprint reader

Torch

Wi-Fi Hotspot"

https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/#samsung

I don't think there is a technical reason. It just depends on what devices are had by people who did the work.

(My comment is an example of one of the difficulties of these types of projects. I simply presumed they're piggybacking off of LineageOS work, as it's so popular. That will be a point of comparison to anybody that can appreciate this project, just like buying a used S7/S9 off eBay and DIY is also. The value proposition ends up caught between a rock and a hard place)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com