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Comment by lqet | Hacker News Reader

Is this legal? At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations. [0]

I can imagine that you can be held liable if, for example, a fire breaks out in your apartment, the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

[0] as others have mentioned below, this does not seem to be enforceable, even if it is part of the contract, and you are free to change locks after moving in. You only have to give the landlord access to the apartment in case of emergency, and he may enter forcefully if you don't do that (or if you are not present / have changed locks).

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> "At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations."

I am not a lawyer but I know that this is a common misunderstanding in Germany. The landlord is not allowed to keep a key to the apartment he rented out, unless you're explicitly consent to it.[0]

You have to grant him access in case of an emergency and if you don't do that, forced entry may be legal (like in the case of a pipe burst).

[0] https://www.mieterbund.de/index.php?id=566

It's most likely built into all standard landlord agreements. I can't imagine a landlord not wanting to have keys a unit they rent out.

In most US states, landlords are required to give 24 hour notice prior to entering a unit (unless it's a maintenance emergency like a broken water pipe).

If it is in the landlord agreement in Germany, that part of the agreement is void. Such a thing is against German law.

That's good to learn! I think I might replace the lock this weekend.

My rental contract in the Netherlands forbids it, but at one time I discussed it with a lawyer and it's not an enforceable clause. Eventually I had to get the lock replaced and I have no intention of giving the property company a key.

>the apartment owner notices it, tries to enter your apartment to extinguish it, cannot enter because of changed lock, and the building burns down.

The fire department/emergency services would absolutely be allowed to (force) enter...why should the landlord be the savior? Perhaps it's different in Germany.

> Perhaps it's different in Germany.

It's not.

It's legal in the UK for a tenant to change the locks, and there's also no law requiring them to provide the landlord a copy of the key. You do have to allow the landlord in for certain reasons (like maintenance) with advance notice, but you can do that by just being home and letting them in yourself. However, the letting contract might prohibit it, and I think commonly does. It's not a right of the tenant to be able to change the locks, so the contract can restrict it, but it's allowed by default if the contract doesn't say anything.

Details: https://www.urban.co.uk/landlord-university/questions-and-an...

Tenants have common law "exclusive possession" and "right to quiet enjoyment" in a UK residential AST. Landlord's presence must be with tenant's consent, it is trespass and possibly an "unlawful eviction" offence otherwise. Landlord don't even have a right of entry to comply with their own statutory requirements, e.g. gas safety check. The only exception is in an "emergency", e.g. a fire.

>"right to quiet enjoyment"

Ah, yeah I encountered the same in Netherlands. A while back the law changed and some legal liability shifted towards landlords if their tenants were found to be growing cannabis. So my property management company decided that they would do random, unannounced inspections of all their tenants four times per year. Plainly contrary to the authorized, agreed-upon reasons for visits and counter to my right not to be bothered. Cue some unknown to me guy knocking on the door asking to look around. Nope! After I argued with the company a few times and refused them entry they finally stopped pestering me. And I'm not growing cannabis...but neither am I a freshman in a college dorm!

I've done this and you are correct. Decent landlords won't mind if you request permission to change the locks.

From a recent tenancy agreement I've seen:

g) Permit the Landlord or the Landlord's agents on reasonable notice and at reasonable hours to enter the premises to view the state and condition thereof and if necessary to carry out repairs, alterations or other works.

s) Not to change or install any locks on any doors or windows of the premises or to make duplicate keys thereto and to return all such keys to the Landlord or the Landlord's agents at the end of the tenancy.

v) To permit the Landlord or the Landlord's agents during the last two months of the tenancy to enter the premises at reasonable hours during the day time together with any prospective tenants or purchasers to view the premises.

The first and second terms are unpalatable but could be tolerated under limited circumstances. I would look at concealing a remote-monitored security camera by the front door to catch and alert any unwelcome visitors.

But that third term is a deal-breaker. Eight weeks of living in an unsafe, insecure home with no privacy? I'm not paying rent for that.

That third one is pretty common in many countries. In New Zealand one of my letting agreements allowed them to show the unit a month prior to moving out.

My rental contract (AU) has those three clauses parent poster presents, verbatim. It's sickening. I actually have a mind to go and find out from a lawyer if they're enforceable.

I'm not Australian, but my sense is that tenants are viewed by the law as something between children and moral degenerates.

EDIT: and landlords are permitted to (and do) "inspect the property for damage" on a six monthly basis. At which point they tell you the day before they'll be poking around in your home. I don't know why we stand for it, frankly.

About six years ago I had to deal with this. The guy showing our place kept forgetting to lock our door afterwards - one time even leaving it ajar.

Doesn't stop you leaving laundry, tools, bike parts, raw meat, or whatever else you think might put prospective tennants off all over the apartment.

> At least here in Germany, the apartment owner is allowed to enter your apartment using his key in emergency situations.

This is completely wrong. In Germany the apartment owner is not even allowed to keep a copy of the key unless you voluntarily give them one. I live in Germany and I also changed the lock the day I moved in and the landlord is not allow to forbid me from doing that.

Same in France. The owner has to relinquish all its means to access the appartement to the tenant.

If there's an emergency, you kick the door.

If it's not an emergency, then you don't need to enter the apartment without the tenant.

Who pays for the broken door?

The apartment owner, or perhaps their insurance.

If it is really an emergency (fire, heat failure, plumbing emergency, etc), not kicking down the door will cost far more than the $200 that a new door costs.

Apparently everyone decided I was proposing letting it all burn down. I was only wondering if, by letting the landlord have a key who could be used in an emergency, the tenants where reducing the risk of being on the hook for those extra $200. Of course the emergency must be dealt with.

Insurance company.

What about a broken waterpipe? That's the most common emergency where a landlord or maintenance staff needs access to prevent building damage.

In Australia you’re legally allowed to change the locks on your rental but you’re required to give a copy of the new keys to your Agent within x hours (my contract says 24hrs).

We do it for all properties and highly recommend it, as we’ve had an ex-contractor (had worked on renovations) walk into our rental a week after we moved in, letting himself in with his keys thinking no one had moved in yet. Wifey was on the couch and let out a hell of a yell, and we chased him out before calling the Police.

In my experience (UK), a typical rental agreement will require you to inform the landlord/agent and provide them with a key, or even get their prior consent to make the change. (I'm not sure if there's actual law on the subject or if it's purely down to the terms of the contract.)

UK rentals typically require prior approval for any sort of modification made to the home - I've had contracts where they considered hanging a picture to be a modification, so I'm pretty sure changing the locks would come under that clause.

It is completely legal to change the locks as a tenant in Germany: https://www.n-tv.de/ratgeber/Darf-der-Mieter-das-Tuerschloss...

A little bit of googling tells me that in Germany you are allowed to change the lock [1]. Never thought of that, will do it probably next time I move.

[1] https://www.advocard.de/streitlotse/mieten-und-wohnen/schlos...

The owner is allowed to keep a key only if the tenant is allowing him. You can change all the locks as tenant if you do not allow him and if you are not sure he is not keeping a key. If your contract stipulates that you must leave the owner a key, you can still change the lock, the clause in the contract is by law not valid.

In Ontario, it's explicitly illegal. One of the very few parts of the law here that isn't tenant friendly.

Wouldn't say fire, they're going to break the door down anyway, but something like a pipe burst or sewer backup, is also time sensitive but not life threatening and in that situation, you might be liable.

Then you aren’t allowed to use a door latch. A rule an owner is allowed to enter doesn’t mean you have to make it possible, just that you can’t complain if he succeeds in entering.

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