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Comment by krisoft | Hacker News Reader

The article talks about stupidity, and these people are often marked as idiots. It is important to note that people follow patterns. Dazzled, scared, and panicking people even more so. I don't know what is the solution to this problem, but I bet the first step is to drop the labels, accept that this is how many reacts currently and design around that behaviour.

Take for example fire exits. We know masses have died meters from safety because they couldn't figure out to pull instead of push, or had the calm to handle a door knob. Did we blame their 'stupidity'? No, we mandated outward opening doors and push-to-open emergency latches.

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""" In moments of total disaster — plane crashes or terrorist attacks — something happens in our brains that affects the way we think. We behave differently, often irrationally.

...

Ripley searches for patterns in human behavior by interviewing hundreds of people who lived through catastrophes. Quick-witted survivors are surprisingly anomalous. One fellow who made it through a horrific aircraft disaster in 1977 happened to be sitting on the runway reading an in-flight safety instruction card when another plane crashed into his. He grabbed his wife, leapt through a hole in the fuselage, and turned to see his fellow passengers remaining docilely in their seats, immobile. Most of them died within minutes as fire swept through the wreckage.

...

The author concludes that all of us undergo a three-stage process when we find ourselves in mortal peril: denial, deliberation and the "decisive moment," during which the survivor buckles down and acts. The trick, she says, may be to understand our instincts, which, in a crisis, may betray us. """

https://www.npr.org/2008/07/22/92616679/identifying-who-surv...

Some people are so dazzled they will just remain in their seats and then go unconscious because of the smoke... I made some research about plane accidents, and here's what I learned: When entering the plane, take note where the exits are. If there's going to be a crash landing, brace your head against the front seat, so that you don't get knocked out. Also brace your limbs (legs under your own chair) so they don't hit something and break, there might be a lot of g-force, and you'll need your legs in order to get out. As soon as the plane is on the ground, unbuckle yourself and get out! Statistically you need to get out within 20 seconds in order to survive! So just leave everything, climb the seats if the center is clogged. The doors are opened manually (by the flight personnel if they're able to) by pushing a lever, and might open slowly to leave some time for the escape slide to inflate. If you land in water, you only want to open the upper section of the door to not let in water. Once out, go 100 meters or so away from the crash site to avoid smoke and be safe from explosions. But don't go too far away or you might get lost because of confusion and shock.

Keep your shoes on during landings too!

"brace your head against the front seat"

is there any good reason why the seatbelts don't also go over the torso like in a car? I can understand that amusement-park style "seat belts" would be too heavy, but couldn't a quick-inflate airbag in similar shape provide similar functionality, but then activated by the crew instead of collision detection?

See also: why are seats not facing backward?

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/why-are-airplane-seatb...

> There are a few reasons why the lift-lever lap belt vanished from cars but not from airplanes. For one thing, a shoulder harness in a car is attached to the car’s frame, a very sturdy part of the car. In an airplane, it would have to be attached to the wall (“bulkhead”), which is less sturdy. You could attach it to the seat, but you’d have to reinforce the seat, which increases weight, which we don’t want.

> The aircraft industry has made some minor steps towards upgrading this system, instituting belts that actually have little airbags right in them. But the venerable lift-lever lap-borne seatbelt costs about $50 each, and passes the FAA’s requirements. So they remain in our seats.

> The article talks about stupidity, and these people are often marked as idiots. ... I bet the first step is to drop the labels, accept that this is how many reacts currently and design around that behaviour.

Similarly, attributing crashes to "pilot error" is an obsolete and unproductive excuse.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals..."

- Agent K

TFA asks that "leave your bags behind" be made more prominent in the safety talk you get while taxiing telling you to buckle your seatbelts. Not a bad idea.

They can say it a million times, but people won't act rationally when their plane slams into the ground and bursts into flames, and can we expect them to? I don't blame these people, I don't know how I would react as I've never been in this situation.

If you beat it into people enough, most of them will probably remember. Where's the life vest? Under the seat, of course. Most people could tell you that in their sleep. Yet, do they study airplanes? No, they just hear that every single time they take off.

Add in a couple scenes in spy thriller movies of Cary Grant or George Clooney smacking someone in a burning plane and shouting "Leave your luggage behind!", and you could probably cement it pretty good.

It's pretty fascinating how quietly some things transition from "novel" to "common knowledge" inside your head.

I've definitely absorbed 'either there's a life vest under the seat or the seat cushion is a flotation device' and 'if oxygen masks drop from the ceiling, put yours on first and then help others' by osmosis over various flights, but I also definitely don't remember 'leave luggage behind' being anywhere near as prominent.

I think it's more selfishness instead of stupidity rather than panic instead of stupidity. I even suspect that the author actually meant selfishness, but called it stupidity to get at those who consider selfishness a virtue, and maybe also as a polite application of Hanlon's razor.

or had the calm to handle a door knob [...] we mandated [...] push-to-open emergency latches

Tangent, is that about focus & presence of mind or the knob getting hot? Much easier to push open a hot latch with your clothed shoulder than to turn a red-hot knob.

Probably both. Safety is important, but people will also literally forget how to use clearly-labeled doors in emergency situations.

If that knob is red-hot you are either dead or you don't want to go to the other side. It takes time for a knob to heat to scalding temperature. If you haven't opened it until that time you are already dead.

There were a few incidents where people were crushed to death by a panicked crowd trying to flee burning buildings. With that much force behind you, there’s no way to open an inward door. It’ll also generate a lot of friction between the bolt and strike plate, making a traditional doorknob hard to open.

The new-style emergency exit door is designed to act like a pressure release valve— if a person is pressed up against the inside with life threatening force, the door opens automatically and lets the fleeing crowd out.

Sorry, but grabbing your luggage during the evacuation of a plane due to fire is incredibly stupid.

All your shit can be replaced. Lifes, which depend on seconds because pathes are blocked by passengers grabbing their luggage or by dropped luggage, cannot.

> Lifes, which depend on seconds because pathes are blocked by passengers grabbing their luggage or by dropped luggage, cannot.

Have you seen any strategic military planning meeting?

They literally count how many troops die and which group to replace them. This is done using numbers, not the first and last names of the troops.

Sure, but I didn't sign up to be cannon fodder when I bought that plane ticket.

And how is that relevant?

> All your shit can be replaced

Yes, at your own expense. Airline compensation is capped.

We're all being rational here in a forum. Someone evacuating a burning aeroplane isn't. They might think "I need my passport" and grab their bag.

In true emergency situations, lots of people do stupid stuff, even if those people act very sensibly in everyday life. This is a statistical reality, not a moral judgment.

This is the same reason that, for example, first aid training includes pointing at specific people and telling them to do things, rather than more generically asking for help.

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