Comment by windexh8er | Hacker News Reader

Comment by windexh8er | Hacker News Reader

I worked for Docker under Steve. Steve is a nice guy, but a horrible CEO for any current tech company. When I left Docker I told HR how disappointed I was in his response as a CEO with regard to recent layoffs. He went on and on about how this was about saving money to get to profitability in 2019 and he blamed himself, as he should have for missing. But then he didn't actually take any responsibility for his actions. He didn't take a pay cut, he had just hired his buddy Neil Charney for marketing and that guy should exit stage left right behind Steve. There's lots of leadership at Docker that's bad and Docker is very misdirected internally. For an entire quarter they kept telling us Microsoft was the path forward. Except most native Windows shops aren't doing a ton of containers. And if they are they're moving to Azure because of the credits. Then Microsoft kind of sort of vanished from the push. And it was kind of sort of IoT - but Docker Enterprise doesn't run on ARM and they were so far behind. Docker has bad leadership and nobody is steering the ship towards a destination, unfortunately.

One last tidbit about Steve. Steve made his fortune off Concur being sold to Amex. So Docker, obviously, had to use Concur internally. We were told not to complain about Concur in Slack ever so as Steve would never see it. Well Steve, Concur is a flaming pile of garbage compared to modern alternatives. And that was where Steve was leading Docker. There are a lot of really good people left at Docker. Get rid of Steve, get rid of Steve's buddies, get rid of the sales leadership and circle back up with the product the team they have can build. I think Steve's departure implies he knew he'd never hit his goal of profitability this year. Bon voyage Steve! Hopefully it's not too late for Docker.

I don’t know about Docker but I concur about Concur. It’s 1990s technology that’s only a quarter step above mainframe green screens.

I will say that Docker’s 2.9 on Glassdoor is very low for a tech company.

I will say that rating is likely very close to how I'd rate the company overall during my short tenure there.

We have to use Concur at the megacorp where I work - it truely is awful. It's slow, clunky, and often just gets in your way.

For example, if I attach a receipt, the "receipt is attached" toggle remains off - you still have to manually change it!

The "cost allocation" stuff is also an unnecessary waste of time, and things often seem to be off by a penny, which causes Concur to complain and prevents submission.

I could go on..

For such a large scale system, I just can't fathom the UX or performance.

For some reason many "enterprise" software products are clunky and buggy. I guess this is because the decision to use the software is made by managers who don't ever use it.

I think it is more to do with the fact that "enterprise" software vendors have done the boring legwork of ticking all of the necessary multi-jurisdiction legal tick-boxes, implement that one insane export format, provide reports required just-so by a given regulator and so-on. The value they provide to the business is outside of the software in that sense.

It's good that the managers care for the higher-level "business" goals, but shouldn't they care for their subordinates more? In the end it also contributes to a business metric - employee happiness. When I was switching a corporate job to a startup job the fact that I switched from a corporate Outlook and a proprietary issue software to GMail and Github made me happier.

I suppose my point is ultimately that they're not goals, they're requirements, and they are often imposed from the outside by legal or other official bodies. In that context caring doesn't really come into it. In terms of the vendors of shitty enterprise software (and attempting to answer your original question), if you've spent a bunch of time, money and effort making the Venn diagram of certifications and industry accreditations and implementing niche proprietary licensed file formats converge into your product you may not have either the willing, cash, or capability to produce quality software with flavour-of-the-month UX too.

> It's good that the managers care for the higher-level "business" goals, but shouldn't they care for their subordinates more?

Ideally, yes; rationally, given the incentives of the concrete eco omic system they exist in, no. Managers work for higher level managers, or at the highest level for capital owners of the business, not for their employees except to the extent that the employees are also capital owners of the business.

Managers aren't union reps for their subordinates, they are agents of capital. That's, literally, their job.

This sounds like early 20th century capitalism... I don't think it's very applicable to the current programming industry, where companies have to fight to retain good employees. Also, the top-down structure is no longer preserved within the Agile's "self-organizing teams". So in this landscape I think it's very reasonable to take seriously what programmers think about the given internal software.

> This sounds like early 20th century capitalism... I don't think it's very applicable to the current programming industry, where companies have to fight to retain good employees.

It absolutely does; just because capitalist are competing for labor doesn't mean that management switches from being agents of capital to agents of labor. Valuable, contested human resources are still resources, not owners.

> Also, the top-down structure is no longer preserved within the Agile's "self-organizing teams".

One of the most frequently reported problems with Agile in practice is that the idea of empowered, self-organizing teams is, even in organizations that give lip service to Agile development given limited, effect by management. In any case, that concept applies mainly to how teams deliver on business goals, not on setting business goals, so even ideally it would not prioritize staff opinions over business goals.

> just because capitalist are competing for labor doesn't mean that management switches from being agents of capital to agents of labor. Valuable, contested human resources are still resources, not owners.

Yes, I generally agree, but it goes as follows:

1. The business owners care only about achieving their business goals.

2. To achieve the business goals the owners need to have good employees.

3. To hire and retain good employees some business decisions should take into cosiderations the needs of the employees.

So even from the purely economical point of view there should be some balance between 1. and 3.

And overall your purely economical point of view seems too rigid to me. One example that comes to my mind is the cultural shift happening at Microsoft. The company made many decisions with little business sense like open sourcing many projects and providing free developer tools. But the effect is that developers like the company more. This has measurable effects like Azure success or hiring better employees. I think this is an example of a bottom-up-built success which doesn't fit your top-down viewpoint.

There’s some truth in this, but my overwhelming sense is that previous poster is correct too. Enterprise software vendors almost never sell to their actual end users. While this is true, no one should be surprised that the UX on most enterprise software products is truly awful.

Also, <mild sarcasm warning> if you ship high quality working enterprise software on day one that actually delivers everything your customer needs, how will you bill them for a large “services” team engagement? It’s not unusual for this service money to make up a substantial portion of a mid to large enterprise software company’s revenues. All too often they are building features or fixing bugs that should have been in the original product as sold.

I’ve often sadly joked at my own work that if we shipped working software we’d probably make less money...

Also execs (both buyers and sellers) choose to underinvest over time.

> For some reason many "enterprise" software products are clunky and buggy.

That's because “selling to enterprises” is a distinct competency from “making a working product”.

> I guess this is because the decision to use the software is made by managers who don't ever use it.

That's, often, an important part of the problem, but another, perhaps more signficant, part of the problem is that enterprise level constraints on software purchasing decisions are often made by managers (or management workgroups with no single responsible party, or even by directly by state or federal legislation and/or regulation from outside the purchasing agency [0]) who are (or, in the case of groups, consist of people who mainly are) remote in time and org-chart distance from both the decision to purchase software and the actual use of the software. This is perhaps most notoriously true in the public sector, where often the most critical competency for selling to an agency is the ability to navigate the acquisition policies applicable to that agency, which in the most complex of cases involve policies driven by both state and federal legislation and regulation by multiple state and federal control agencies as well as the internal policies of the agency actually doing the purchasing, but any large organization tends to have bureaucratic purchasing rules which, while usually well-intentioned and sometimes legitimately necessary to avoid even worse adverse effects, inadvertently reward vendors with competence in navigating the particular bureaucratic maze over those that lack such competence in a way that can at times outweigh competence in delivery.

The company I work for provides software to a very specific enterprise market. One of the most insightful moves the owner/CEO made was starting a business that uses the software right alongside the software company itself (in the building next door).

Members of the software company staff do week long rotations working at that business just so they can get a real life feel for actual needs of the market, which has been really beneficial.

Low marks on Glassdoor are pretty much the norm in European tech companies, especially in countries like Germany.

Maybe they are actually crap. Many seem to be running a sweatshop model - long hours, low pay (yes really - that's a big difference to Silicon Valley) and stupid perks.

Seconded. I've seen quite some Belgian and German (tech) companies that don't value good (tech) employees. They'd rather pay slightly below market rate and cheap out on everything. Somehow these companies keep going. People's standards here, are low.

Belgian news has an item every half-year where some big shot company boy complains about how difficult it is to get (good) ITers. This gets thinned down to "there's not enough ITers". Reality is that they refuse to pay for the quality employees they NEED, so those work elsewhere/leave the company/work remote.

> "there's not enough ITers"

This is the complaint every company I've worked for or met with so far has fielded at me, which is kind of hilarious as they all also unequivocally refuse to pay a reasonable wage.

Same experience at another megacorp, hated it. The cynic in me has the feeling they use this to turn people off from getting reimbursed - the worse the UX and tech the fewer megacorp has to pay for expenses.

Small correction: Concur was sold off to SAP, not Amex. Although we all expected it to be sold off to Amex for a long time :)

What are the good alternatives to Concur? I don't mind it (as far as enterprise software goes)

Also, did you think about telling Steve Singh these comments, or just HR?

Expensify

Doesn't Expensify have a landing page?! https://www.expensify.com

Color me confused.

https://use.expensify.com/

Expensya

https://www.expensya.com/en

> Steve is a nice guy

> he didn't actually take any responsibility for his actions. He didn't take a pay cut

I was implying that he was nice personally, as in some CEOs won't give you the time of day. You'd expect someones actions to align with their personality in a case like that.

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