Uber’s Arbitration Addiction Could Be Death by 60k Cuts
bloomberg.com
bloomberg.com
We were out late one night and we called an Uber to get back home. After a very long wait and an odd delay where the driver stayed in the same position on the map for 10 minutes, they started driving again and then arrived. (We suspect that during this time one of the passengers shit themselves)
My fianceé sat down and immediately felt excrement all over her clothing. It was very dark so she did not see this until after she entered the car and sat down. We also noticed that the other supposed passenger mentioned in the Uber app already bailed.
We were never compensated as we would not agree to the NDA. I don't think we could agree to the NDA even if we wanted to because I already tweeted about the incident before being offered compensation.[2]
Uber mentioned that the NDA isn't required in cases of sexual assault, but it's still required even if you are potentially exposed to sexually transmitted diseases through human excrement. What the fuck?
I thought it was odd that only you were a party to the agreement and not your fiance and then I got to paragraph 5 and realized their request is even crazier... they want you to indemnify, defend, and hold them harmless from any other liabilities that might arise from the incident. If it turned out your fiance contracted a deadly illness from her contact with human waste and she sued Uber (or worse, her insurance company sued Uber for reimbursement) not only would you be on the hook for the damages, you would have to pay all of their legal fees during the process.
For a $100 settlement.
I have to imagine you are in the small minority of people who even reads these contracts of adhesion so I'd bet most people who sign these have no idea what they're giving up.
That is truly unconscionable.
Imagine if you walked out of a store having paid $10 for some merchandise, only to have the merchant come knocking at your door two weeks later saying that you need to pay another $10. One of the principle purposes of all contracts, and the law generally, is to provide finality. In the case of a settlement, there's little if any finality for the defendant if you don't agree to indemnify.
If $100 isn't enough to cover your future risk, then propose amendments (e.g. larger payment, a more explicitly circumscribed indemnity, etc) and if necessary take them to small claims court where you can recover for the immediate harm while preserving your future options.
There are general limitations on such clauses, accumulated over hundreds of years of legal evolution which bends, ever so slightly, toward fair outcomes. There's also supplementing legislative protections, typically stylized "consumer protections" when involving the hoi polloi. I wouldn't venture to say whether the indemnity clause would protect Uber if the claimant came down with an STD; it might or it might not, depending on the state, the context, and possibly even the sentiments of a jury. (In the case that it would protect Uber, consider that it's unlikely Uber who smeared the feces, so it's hardly that unfair from a moral standpoint unless there was gross negligence involved, such as the driver knowing the feces was there or Uber knowing that a driver was regularly in such incidents.)
What makes arbitration clauses problematic, as opposed to indemnification, is that the Federal Arbitration Act has been reinterpreted (beginning ~75 years after the fact) by a conservative court to foreclose state-based protections regarding fair enforcement of such clauses, and there are few if any federal-based limitations.
What's really needed is legislation that assigns direct punitive liability to drafters/pushers of contracts that continue to include outright nonsensical terms. Failing that it would be interesting if someone tried going after the practice as improperly providing incorrect legal advice - its basic goal is to mislead the opposing party into not knowing their own rights.
Further, contract law is primarily based in common law, which means a lot of terms that are inserted aren't definitively legal or illegal and it comes down to whether or not they are "reasonable". In this example, almost all of the demands from Uber could be reasonable in an NDA, but are pretty clearly not reasonable in this case. However, when and where terms are reasonable isn't exactly codified anywhere.
It's absolutely a problem, but punitive liability on the drafters on contracts just creates a power imbalance somewhere else.
When one of those contracts hits the court, almost all the technical details have been thoroughly discussed, leaving loads of precedent to stand on. The consumers know there's no surprises in it, and the businesses know they're going to have a quick and predictable time if there's a dispute. Eventually, people would start to look at you very suspiciously if you didn't want to use a standard contract-- what scam are you trying to work on?
The concept of "let's let anyone write arbitrary contracts and sort it out later" feels strangely 19th-century-quaint today. It relies on nicities of a different era: The two parties probably had reasonably equal access to legal support and knowledge, the negotiations were being done in good faith rather than as a land grab for maximum indemnity/payout, there was a full opportunity to negotiate instead of take-it-or-leave-it clickthroughs.
I'm not talking about terms that merely could be at odds or attempt to carve out a narrow exception from prevailing law, but rather wholesale contradiction. Templates aren't a problem, but rather the solution.
Landlords are some of the worst offenders, actually. How many tenants have a dispute, read over their lease, and incorrectly think they have no options but to submit?
http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/fellows_pape...
Landlords will absolutely hammer tenants over even the slightest thing in a lease (so will tenants, for certain). To require that the contract the landlord puts forward be actually legal and reasonable does not move me in the slightest. The landlord has almost all of the power, both economic and market-moving, and is under no requirement to fairly negotiate a lease with a prospective tenant. This might not be a problem in areas with a glut of rental properties but it is for sure a problem in areas with a glut of prospective tenants.
By way of example, I'm living under a lease right now that was presented on take-it-or-leave-it conditions but that I cannot ever fulfill due to at least four requirements I read in it. The most hilarious is the requirement that my pet be covered by a pet license "issued by [local county] for household pets" and failure to have such a license is deemed "a material violation of the lease," subject to immediate notice to vacate when the landlord so chooses. The problem is, I can't ever do that because the county listed happens to contain the city I am in but the county does not issue pet licenses to residents of my city. Only my city does, but the lease does not require a city license; only a county one.
Lawyers would of course have to draft those templates. But they would rapidly end up being offered for $199 on document-prep websites which sell them already, along with divorce papers and bankruptcy filings.
A "template" supplied by an attorney, Nolo, or Staples is not going to create liability for a landlord. That's a complete red herring. Read the pdf I linked for a classification methodology to grade just how brazenly in conflict some clauses can be.
One way to avoid this is to pass legislation making the entire contract void if there are unenforceable terms.
You can just sue for the specific term and if the judge agrees then the entire contract is null.
This would stop lawyers from sticking them in there...
You're basically making contracts extremely risky to use for their intended purpose, or at least any contract that isn't a cookie cutter agreement for a well-investigated issue.
NDAs usually exclude from the definition of confidential information anything disclosed before the fact. They also don’t typically restrict you from letting regulators, et cetera know things.
Unless you were planning on writing a book about the experience, the NDA probably wasn’t restricting you. Unless you were planning on going to court, the arbitration clause probably made your ability to seek redress cheaper.
Note: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice.
Makes markup difficult.
(As it does providing you a copy.)
Unfortunately I still use Uber occasionally, so I'd rather not risk getting banned.
Why not just pay their cleaning bill and be done with it, instead of trying to deal with court and lose/ban the customer and all their future business?
Why the OP did not decide to switch out of Uber after this incident also baffles me, but to each their own. Crazy how people will let a multi-billion dollar corporation do anything to them and will keep giving them money.
How is this not a perfect example of the "customer voting with their wallet"? Maybe its not the vote you or I would have made. Clearly the customer values continued access to the network more than buying new clothes once. That is a vote for Uber's shitty [;P] business practices.
Also, free advertising and reputational damage!
I've literally never used Uber because of stuff like this, and I discourage others from using them also. I mostly drive myself, but I'm content to use regular taxis and occasionally Lyft.
The customer service team's priority is maximizing customer satisfication.
The legal team's priority is minimizing legal liability.
If that were literally true Uber wouldn't currently exist. They were knowingly breaking laws and arguably continue to do so.
Uber's lawyers are interested in advocating for Uber, period. In most organizations the legal department can and will be overridden when it's in the company's financial interests. Saying that something is non-negotiable is the oldest negotiating tactic in the book. If Uber refuses to bargain over a settlement it's because (a) you're not bargaining hard enough or (b) they're prepared to go to court. You can never know without forcing the issue.
The Anglo-American legal system, and to a lesser extent most other legal systems, principally evolved to adjudicate disputes among aristocrats and merchants. Neither group is shy about advocating for themselves. If they want the maximum benefit of the law, neither should regular individuals be shy.
That was from the business strategy and distribution folks. And then legal does the best they can with what they have.
Point being.... Don't be surprised by unoptimal actions if they are local optimums for the people involved. Thus the overreaching contract for $100 incident.
It's a function of priority: make money > minimize legal liability > satisfy customers.
Work in a small town sometime and realize the respect you get - people take advantage of your company out of vengeance more than anything else - which is why most people here would be happy to exploit any justification to lower their cable bill.
I think it's the same logic I'd use if I sat in gum at a discount theater, and the owner responded with "I'll pay for your pants, but only if you never come back here. I can't implement a process that keeps you from sitting in gum. We don't have that budget, and you should have been fully aware of that by looking at how dumpy this place is. And if you can't take responsibility for sitting in gum yourself, then I don't want to see what else you will do that you try to hold me liable for." Then I'd have to decide if the discount theater was worth it or not.
Ting (ting.com) offers mobile service for $6/mo/line. They sell SIM cards for $1 so buy a few, then you can always spin up a new line on-demand. They support TOTP/U2F 2-FA, toggling call/text/data service, block porting, multiple call forward options, device auth/deauth/activation/suspention, # port blocking, etc., competent friendly humans provide on-demand phone support, and unlimited hassle free referral bonuses (you get $50 for initial referral $25 for unlimited others, people you refer get $25).
I've done a credit card chargeback about 3 times in my life, and in none of those cases did I ever worry, "Gosh, if these guys ban me, I'll never be able to give them my money again!"
Also, declining the token payment leaves a lawsuit open down the line if more serious complications develop from the incident.
Even if not I suggest you show some backbone and do it anyway.
[1] Paragraph 2: https://www.uber.com/legal/terms/us/
Why would that be the case? The NDA would be fore going forward.
What would be the corrective action anyway ? That none of their drivers ever make any mistake ?
The reason to hold an employer liable for an employee's actions when acting in the course of employment is that this creates good incentives for the employer to institute good policies and procedures, and proper discipline of employees when they are on the job. This is a well-established legal doctrine called "respondeat superior."
Now, the $100 question: are Uber drivers employees? And in either case, how much liability flows up to Uber for a driver's malfeasance? I believe that's still unsettled, but I don't think it's just as simple as "if you have a problem with a driver, that's on the driver, not on Uber." Uber should have some responsibility for establishing standards for their drivers, and they should be held responsible when they are breached.
In fact, a lot of drivers use several apps like Uber, and sometime even contract privately.
Imagine the same incident happen, but suddenly the Uber app crashes. You ask for a ride again, but on Lyft, but it's the same car arriving.
Now what ? Lyft is responsible ?
To poke a hole in the service provider argument, think about the experience of buying something from a real service provider. Stripe charges me fees to move my money around. That's it -- they don't choose the price of the item, they don't change my fees depending on whether or not the item was shipped or delivered digitally. My Internet service provider charges me a flat fee or a usage-based fee depending on how much Internet I use. Similarly, if I want to advertise on a billboard, I pay for the billboard -- not a percentage of each sale I make. Even in the Internet advertising business, I pay for impressions, and clickthroughs -- not for what happens after a customer is connected to me.
In short, you pay for the thing you buy, and companies are liable for the thing they sell you. Stripe is liable if they mess up transferring money, since that's what they charged me for. They're not liable if my item gets shipped wrong, because they tangibly, observably didn't have anything to do with that.
So on Uber, the price is fixed by the app and I'm charged based on the distance I travel. Drivers don't set the price-per-mile, Uber does. Uber then directly collects money from me based on the distance I traveled, and separately pays a percentage to the driver after the fact. Optionally, I can tip the driver just like I would tip a normal taxi driver.
That doesn't sound like Uber is charging a fee to connect me to someone. It's not a fixed monthly payment to use the app -- it's not based on whether or not the driver uses the Uber GPS or how much data they use. I'm not paying per ride-request. I'm paying Uber for the ride itself. It's a direct mirror of how I'm charged for a normal taxi.
So I'm contacting Uber and saying, "I want a ride", and they're charging me directly for a ride, based on attributes of the ride itself and not based on my usage of the app -- and then they want to claim that they're somehow not involved at all when something goes wrong with that ride? No, I am buying a ride from Uber, not from the contractor, and thus Uber is responsible for the quality of that ride.
Where does this philosophy of yours end? "Well, yes, that cop did kill your son, when your son was unarmed and innocent. Why complain to the police department? It was the officer's fault. What would be the corrective action, anyway? That no police officer ever makes a mistake?"
How clean will these cars be when they are fully automated? Funny to think Tesla wants you to send your personal car off to a taxi fleet when not in use.
If cars getting dirty is the worst problem Tesla has with their Fleet, they would be doing pretty tremendously well at that point.
At least you never need to worry about background checking the driver.
I mean, you would theoretically be getting paid good money, your car is going to get dirty.
I think we'll see forced arbitration go away if more classes band together and go through arbitration one-by-one.
> Lawyers who claim to represent more than 12,000 drivers who have filed arbitration demands have sued Uber, arguing the company has refused to pay obligatory filing fees to get the process started.
So apparently Uber can just say "we're not gonna" if they decide that arbitration is no longer working in their favor. Does that open them up to a class action suit on behalf of all the drivers who were denied arbitration? I have no idea, IANAL.
The American Arbitration Association has been cracking down on companies which refuse to pay. They send out letters to companies telling them that not only does the AAA reject this arbitration, the company can no longer use AAA services at all. This throws the case back into the judicial system.
"The cost of arbitration is turning out to be real leverage for plaintiffs' lawyers who are smart enough to adapt to the privatization of litigation. It may not be long before companies like Uber start wishing for the good old days of class actions."
[1] http://www.outsourcingjustice.com/11th-circuit-hernandez-aco... [2] https://demlplaw.com/firm-blog/new-decision-failure-pay-arbi... [3] https://www.publicjustice.net/bait-and-switch-many-corporati...
If your motivation is to get back $25 then you're right -- it isn't worth your time to coordinate with other people to DDOS Uber with mass-arbitration.
But if your goal is to fuck over Uber out of principle for them fucking you over that is something you can't really put a price on.
On top of that knowing that you're using their scummy forced arbitration clause against them is a cherry on top of the schadenfreude sunday.
According to the article around 60,000 people have found the time to make this happen.
What we are seeing is a fundamental aspect of human nature and that is that spite is a great motivator.
You're right, most people can't afford to do this, but many can. Enough that it is hitting Uber where it hurts -- the bottom line.
And as someone who favours stronger protections for workers that is most pleasing.
This is exactly why spite is a great motivator - it encourages people to do better game theory (in the context of the ancestral evolutionary environment, at least). If you never go after the $25 someone owes you just out of spite, people will repeatedly take advantage of you in ways that aren't worth remedying.
Some people will spend more cash to remedy the unfairness of the situation
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/are-human...
I didn't get banned, American Express handled the negotiation for me, and I got my money back and with a canned apology email from the companies.
It isn't an accident that arbitration clauses come with class action waivers.
Costs about $10 (not including labor, because IMO it's personally satisfying), and has roughly a one-in-three chance of them simply paying you to avoid the expense of small claims court.
You're sending a pretty strong signal there. Do you know who's listening for it?
I bet that this personal data, that you are giving away money is really valuable to some 3rd party.
Minimum wage workers make $50+ dollars a day. Even part time, most shifts are at least long enough to make $25.
Nor is taking PTO to sit in arbitration for a while for $25 an appealing option for many people.
Let their swords against just and favourable conditions of work be used against them.
I think I'm sympathetic to the idea that if you insert a binding arbitration clause, you've chosen to forgo protections like SLAAP. However, say you didn't insert a binding arbitration clause, but didn't expressly forbid it and offer it as an option. Couldn't a coordinated campaign cost a company huge sums of money, as the company bears most of the arbitration costs?
Again, I don't think this is happening in this situation, and I can't say I've heard of it happening, but it's something that came to mind.
One time uber’s UI glitched out causing an unwanted purchase and their customer service refunded me a day later. Could I have just sued them instead of trying to reach customer service?
Could I sue them for something I thought they did with no reasonable proof?
I’m wondering if there are limitations to abuse not for the purpose of extracting wealth from a company but for attacking the arbitration system.
And keep in mind, it's a lot of hassle to file suit or arbitration. And you need to be able to show in good faith that you tried using reasonable channels to resolve the dispute first, i.e. if you never even contacted customer support with your complaints then that's not good for you.
As an example, I recently had a Lyft to the airport that was priced up front at $80 but was billed at $120 post-arrival. Part of the problem was the airport drop-off zone was under a roof and the GPS signal probably didn't work and the ride kept running for at least 10 minutes after I'd been dropped off. It took all of two minutes to contact customer support and get refunded the extra $40. I'm not going to go to arbitration in this case which costs me two orders of magnitude more effort and has a lower chance of getting my money back, because I would've never even have notified them of the issue prior to escalating too high.
Arbitration clauses don't work as intended if the company can't choose a biased arbiter to rule in their favor, so this is always part of the contract.
Even if they didn't outright choose an expensive one to squash claims, it would be unfair to make an individual pay for a service they can and want to get cheaper elsewhere (on less favorable terms for Uber).
Unless there's blatant cronyism and abuse of power, I don't think biased arbitration by itself would fail to hold up. Judges are humans with personal ideologies too, so you can pick some that do everything by the book and still skew the result in your favor (especially averaged over 60,000 cases)
It was a good plan with the only flaw being they didn't anticipate so many drivers banding together to file for arbitration that the fees themselves are annoyingly high.