Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers
itwire.com
itwire.com
In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.
If the hacker was based in Iran, I doubt Israel would have anywhere near the same reaction.
Israel has also aggressively targeted engineers back in the 80's/90's reportedly involved in asymmetric weapon design/engineering(prior to advent of easier cross border info sharing).
Perhaps hacking tool developers would also be similarly targeted, or already have been?
Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow.
Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects.
Much like how terrorism is(or should be) mostly a law enforcement function.
Hacking should be as well.
But planning for exceptions is also important.
Especially planning to ensure exceptions don't become the norm.
Bombing
> They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace."
> "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed."
> Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas cyberattack; however, they said they first stopped the attack online, and only then responded with an air strike.
No details, at all, except that they had already stopped the attack, and from things like "ahead of them all the time", it doesn't exactly sound like they didn't know any other way to prevent injury or death other than to level the building.
> But planning for exceptions is also important.
Just because they killed people doesn't mean that it was an exceptional case that required it, so I would start there.
But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents.
In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response.
The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent.
In this case, if I had to guess, there was a rare opportunity to hit apex and/or volume technical talent the IDF justified by the rocket attacks and/or it’s signalling that moving forward insurgent cyber will be considered a valid target for kinetic action.
It’s also worth mentioning that the people targeted may not be hackers, but social media camapigners/influencers.
It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either.
> In this case, if I had to guess
That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a threat and killed them, and someone else just said "oh yeah, they've always been quick to capture or kill people", and "this may be signalling that going forward people mistaken for threat are considered a valid target for physical removal", would you like that?
> Every powerful state relies on specialists whose task is to show that what the strong do is noble and just and, if the weak suffer, it is their fault. In the West, these specialists are called "intellectuals" and, with marginal exceptions, they fulfill their task with skill and self-righteousness, however outlandish the claims, in this practice that traces back to the origins of recorded history.
-- Noam Chomsky
When I said "start there", I meant start with the deed. Start with the principles, and if you would like them to be applied to you and people you love. There are things we cannot bless. We can support them, but that just degrades us, it doesn't enoble these things one bit.
> People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction.
-- Noam Chomsky
I rather consider Yeshayahu Leibowitz "pro Israel" -- in a sense of supporting the heart, body and soul, not just the body come what may -- just like I would have considered Sophie School "pro Germany", not "anti Germany". Principles, and applying them equally, and not having double standards, those are real, being pro this or that is just rhetoric.
I’m clinically describing it.
I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached.
Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder.
I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you don’t think my remarks are flippant.
It’s not my fight.
I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one group of humans directed at another, based on their behaviour in a new domain(digital).
Leveraging a new domain(digital) as a weapon(cyber/information operations) can expect to have weapons from across other domains(air land sea space) used to detect, deter, destroy them.
My posting doesn’t equate to agreeing with all of it.
But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?
> But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?
I'm not expressing shock. I'm expressing anger and the refusal to normalize this.
It's not like Hamas and IDF enjoy the exact equal respect in (the polite companty of) the Western world. I can mention Leibowitz, and nobody in their right mind would attempt to smear the man; but quoting him would be different, and saying it in my own words ouldn't go over smoothly at all. Netanyahu goes around talking about how the Palestinian Mufti gave Hitler the idea to kill Jews instead of just re-settle them, a German protester holds up a sign just quoting Netanyahu, and gets arrested. It's been an unadulterated shitshow for a long, long time, and it seems that as a German citizen, I can't claim neutrality, the actions and flowery words of my government make that impossible. That goes tenfold for US citizens. That ship has sailed in my books. So the least I can and must do do is say "not in my name".
Also, Israel isn't a monolith, Palestine isn't a monolith. Individual actions and reasons for them are on a wide spectrum, and are culpable for what they do. There's warmongers on all sorts of "sides", and they use each other to justify each other. It's not human behaviour, it's corporate behaviour for lack of a better word. People do and justify things in groups they cannot justify as individuals. For me the dividing line is not between various tribes or nations, but human individuals on one hand, and any and all "tribes" (that rise to the rank of nationalistic, jingoist delusion and express themselves in murder) on the other. Maybe that stuff was good for something 50k years ago, but we kind of have to decide if we want our technology, or that. Insisting to keep both together might just mean we won't have either.
It's interesting that the tweet in this article makes this point:
> this is the equivalent of saying blowing up drone pilots at Ellis AF Base is okay too.
For a party currently engaged in military conflict with US - say, Taliban - why would it not be, in terms of international rules and customs of war? Drone pilots are definitely combatants - you don't get to lob Hellfires at targets remotely, but then complain when they find you in person and shoot back. Does anybody seriously thinks otherwise?
It's a huge difference. It's a game changer. The rule has been to respond in kind. In the past cyber attacks were responded with cyber attacks. Now a bomb will be dropped on the attackers. Hackers haven't gone into war thinking they are direct targets. That's changed now. Of course, that means that the targets will get better defenses but don't expect to be a supporting player and be treated as such.
At some level, it's a recognition of how much of modern society is managed in cyberspace and how much damage can be done with a cyber attack.
I think the broader context is important here. A cyber attack by itself does not justify this sort of response. But a cyber attack that is intended to bolster one side in a military conflict, carried out by people explicitly aligned with that side, is a part of the broader war effort. Responding to that with deadly force is still responding "in kind".
"Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. There is nobody else to fire the rockets. Only Hamas has them. And placement of the "offensive" as a response on firing rockets at the Israel's civilians. Looks like this is very offensive to protect your civilians!
To no surprise, Israel with its history and conception will warrant criticism and even disgust from anyone.
The same goes for any other state that acts similarly. My feeling are not exclusive to Israel, stealing land (to the degree of perfection) and oppressing minorities daily is pretty telling of Israels precieved superiority over others.
If so, please solidify your point and contribute to the discussion by providing it.
Equating criticism of either Israel or Zionism with anti-Semitism does real disservice to the victims of actual anti-Semitism both past and present.
israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control.
hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip.
both hamas and islamic jihadis want the annihilation of the state of israel.
i see no end in sight to the bloodshed, no matter how many civilians die.
but i do understand why people would side with israel when it comes to gaza, and side with the palestinians when it comes to occupied territories.
Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts:
The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog]
On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...]
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe...]
https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dish...
wrong on so many level it's not even funny.
Why does Egypt blockade Gaza on their side? (serious q)
Wow.
from the terrorists point of view, the destruction of the state of israel is worth sacrificing lives.
No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population.
Israel's use of kid gloves against the Palestinians just emboldens them and encourages more cycles of violence.
Israeli Solider testimony [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU]
"The Lobby" - Documentary exposing the vile and venomous smearing tactics of the Israeli lobby (undercover reporter is jewish) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc]
The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog]
On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...]
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/...]
you know this is a complex issue, but still prefer to ignore the facts. seems to me you have an agenda.
If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the networked Utopia with our never-extinguished bestial instincts?
Of course all wars are dirty, in one way or the other; but there is a spectrum, and there was certainly an element of honour code in a lot of the spying activities going on in Europe at the time - particularly in places like Germany and England.
“CLEARED FOR RELEASE: We thwarted an attempted Hamas cyber offensive against Israeli targets. Following our successful cyber defensive operation, we targeted a building where the Hamas cyber operatives work.
HamasCyberHQ.exe has been removed.”
Counterproductive and narrative losing if you ask me.