Lithium-ion batteries from Amazon are exploding
theatlantic.com
theatlantic.com
>Amazon often doesn’t own or even touch the products bought and sold on its site—so in Amazon’s view, it’s not liable for defective products. In its response to David Jarrett’s legal complaint, the company said in a court filing that his alleged injuries “were caused by acts or omissions of third-persons or entities over which Amazon has no control.”
Is it just me or are those completely contradictory? Both of those statements can't be true. You can't both reassure customers of the quality and safety of items sold on your platform AND say you have "no control" of your platform.
I've been shifting my buying away from Amazon toward smaller niche retailers that actually manage their own inventory. When I do opt for a free-for-all marketplace, I've found eBay to have a much more trustworthy reputation system.
I'm also trying to find brick-and-mortar when possible.
www.imrbatteries.com
liionwholesale.com
batterybro.com
www.illumn.com
www.orbtronic.com
www.rtdvapor.com
www.akkuteile.de
ecoluxshopdirect.co.uk
www.nkon.nl
E-cig users are especially vulnerable to counterfeit lithium-ion cells. For one, we tend to draw way more current from them than most other consumer electronics devices. Two, the batteries are in our face or pocket all the time.
I cannot overstate the irony I find in this reversal: In the early days of Amazon vs. eBay in online retail, a huge brand point for Amazon was its reliability and trustworthiness for consumers vs. the "free-for-all"(!) of early-days eBay. And I agree, the change has been rather dramatic, for both companies.
As an aside, I feel like Ebay is one of those few "early behemoths" that actually figured out why they were working: you could know how reliable this john smith has been as a seller. And when internet payment was still terrible, they doubled down on it with Paypal (say what you want about paypal as a seller, but as a buyer it's still gold today, so ten years ago ...).
Most selling communities that survived here in France either have also their own reputation system, or they're cash in hands.
I find it kind of funny when compared to more "modern" tech giants like, say, Twitter; a company which has no idea why their product works.
Maybe not contradictory, but according to the article it isn't true. They know the batteries can explode, but haven't done anything.
I just wanted to second this. I've been doing a lot of buying and selling on ebay recently and have had nothing but excellent experiences. Even when things (inevitably) go wrong they seem to be handled fairly.
This is a fairly recent development btw (I've been a member since 2002). I'd urge anyone who has been avoiding ebay due to their reputation from 10 years ago to give it a second chance. Either they've changed or Amazon has lowered the bar so far that ebay doesn't seem so bad these days!
It's a clown town over there.
I recently wanted a blue alarm clock. Amazon was 20$. Walmart Online 10$.
I still use Amazon to price check, but I've started price checking numerous competitors.
Here is a study we did for baby items, but it was clear online>brick and mortar. Walmart>Amazon https://efficiencyiseverything.com/target-vs-amazon-vs-walma...
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/shoptimate/pr...
The gathering of browser data in the privacy policy is to cover things taken by my Apache logs or click statistics (which I sometimes need to charge stores that pay me per click). But I don't monetize this in any shape or form.
I think Target may be moving in that direction as well? They've started doing free 2-day shipping as well, I would not be surprised if that's how they're doing it. They seem like they're making a genuine attempt to compete with Amazon too.
I am forced to return the item and cause Amazon so much loss, when Amazon can just offer price matching upto a week but no they don't do that
Second, Amazon tells me that there is lightening offer on some product but the price has only changed like 1% and Amazon compares it with the fake price which it never before charged in its store.
But when price also changes and there are issues, this leaves me no other option but to return the package. (Which I really hate)
The amount of third party sellers re-using listings for multiple products to pad their reviews is honestly astonishing. Searching for a lightning to 3.5mm jack leads to this as the #2 result:
https://www.amazon.com/Earphone-Charging-Headphone-Splitter-...
Not only does this not work (as discovered by my SO), but all of the reviews for it are for phone cases, utility knives, etc. In the past month or two, this has been happening WAY too often. It's gotten to the point, like you've said, where AliExpress has become more reliable. That seems insane to me.
It links to this article from last year that seems to go into more detail about that particular method too: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/amazon-rev...
(I would really just like a way to filter out multiple-product listings entirely. The only valid use-case is like, multiple colors or something. 99% of the time they're used to game search results and the prices are almost never good enough to be worth manually sorting through 200 identical listings vs just filtering them out entirely. But at least minimum price queries filter out one way they are abused.)
Also, filter to US sellers only. Usually if you buy from China then the savings aren't that huge, you'll be waiting a month to get your item, and if the item ends up not working then it's impossible to return it. On some items you are going to be getting the same junk anyway, but from a bulk importer shipping from the US, but other items with definite name-brands it does cut out a lot of the junk listings.
or when you order something from amazon while not having prime, choose free shipping and have it artificially delayed so that it comes 2 weeks later. not much different than ordering the same item from aliexpress for cheaper and waiting those same weeks for the free shipping.
Packaging? As in neither your neighbor nor the delivery guy know there is a $500 SSD in that little package. What other company is able / willing to pack such a huge variety of products into its own branded boxes?
Of course, should the whole thing turn into a giant screwball of hidden links between manufacturer and end user, impossible to debug when things go wrong - well, that's just a collateral. As long as the decision makers get their bonuses, it's all good. /s
Just like with real authoritarian societes, they need expensive control and justice mechanism including strong censorship aparatus, otherwise the platform risks collapse or fragmentation.
Trust can't be scaled easily.
This gives me hope that the online world won't be eaten by few entities and will evolve back into more distributed federation, with local trust plus solid standards as lesson learned.
I think we should let this play out.
No one stays the leader forever, and big companies have their own problems.
Be a smart consumer and stop buying from bad companies. You don't need an Apple product, you don't need to buy from Amazon, you don't need all of your searches to come from Google. And Facebook is almost dead.
Is there anything more to Amazon than a) fast shipping and b) you can buy anything there for relatively cheap* (probably because it's from China)
* I've found Amazon lately is a lot costlier than local department stores for random things.
Service.
I had some headphones that broke after just over a year, but were still in warranty, and the manufacturer was being awkward about repairing them. Amazon refunded them the next day.
I also recently had some bulbs stop working after about six months, but as I'd ordered a two-pack and a single, and two had stopped working, I wasn't sure how to do a refund. Amazon just refunded all tree three.
Who wants this other than shady marketplace sellers?
You can't have it both ways. Either you're just a platform, and have no liability, in which case you need to make it clear who the seller was, and how you can reach him, or you own up to selling people dangerous devices.
The culture that produces this sort of behaviour is rotten, and is everything but customer-focused.
So Pirate Bay is responsible for posting a link even if it's not serving the illegal content but Amazon is not responsible for doing the same and even shipping the offensive items?
> In the massive global network of manufacturers, distributors, sellers, and resellers, it can be nearly impossible to tell who’s actually responsible for getting any given product into your living room.
...because it completely diffuses any sense of responsibility. It's not that "it can be impossible to tell who’s actually responsible." It's that this global network was deliberately designed to make it impossible to hold anyone accountable; as far as Amazon's concerned, that's a feature, not a bug.
> Korean company that makes LG-branded lithium-ion batteries, sent a letter to sellers and distributors of e-cigarette devices and equipment, telling them, “Individual consumer use and handling of 18650 cells is a dangerous misuse of the cells that can lead to severe burns and disfigurement.” It asked companies to stop selling LG 18650 cells, and to tell customers who had bought the cells in the past that they should dispose of them safely.
> Many Amazon sellers reported receiving emails last August saying Amazon had prohibited the sale of cylindrical-lithium-ion batteries, including the 18650.
I know 18650 cells normally come in battery packs with charging and protection circuit, and that even in the DIY electronics community, it's not recommended to build the battery management circuitry by yourself, unless you know what's you are doing.
But even if purchasing raw, unprotected 18650 cells is not recommended. Still, if a device is using these raw 18650 cells, it means the proper circuitry must have been already included in the device. If properly designed, a device with 18650 cells replaced should be as safe as the original one. So there should be no reason to disallow an individual customer to remove a dead 18650 from a device, purchase a new cell and replace it. I've personally seen raw 18650 cells found in flashlights and RC toys, replacing them is a routine procedure.
One of the three possibilities:
* 1. Most individual customers have no idea about the safety when handling these raw cells, and are handling and charging them in a reckless and dangerous manner, for example, using a low-quality, generic charger, or exposing them to mechanical shocks, high temperature, etc.
* 2. 18650 cells are inherently unsafe to be used with e-cigarette due to the nature of this application, or they are not safe to replace (easy to break something in this process), or many e-cigarette units do not perform battery management properly.
* 3. It's difficult to distinguish between good and counterfeit 18650 cells, due to the potential hazards, it's better for Amazon to ban them altogether?
As a result, Amazon and some battery manufacturers banned their selling to individual customers to avoid accidents and incidents due to the above unfortunate reasons. Otherwise, I think purchasing a new 18650 cell and replace the dead ones in your electronics should be perfectly acceptable.
Any comment?
Edit: So far, the conclusion seems to be a mix of all three issues:
1. The biggest problem is #3. It's difficult to find legitimate, authentic 18650 cells. As tristor pointed out (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839673), it's a notorious problem in the hobbyist community and e-cigarette community. If even people who know what they are doing are having trouble finding authentic cells, offering them to average customers is risky. zrobotics added (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839977) that the counterfeit problem is a supply-chain level issue!
> My normal port of call, Digikey, doesn't appear to carry any actual name-brand cells. I see adafruit & sparkfun, hopefully they source decent cells but who knows. There's also Jauch Quartz, who I've never heard of.
teilo also agrees (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19839869) that the proliferation of poorly-made budget 18650s as well as counterfeit re-wraps of junk 18650s sold as quality brands such as LG.
2. Problem #2 is a secondary cause. teilo said a lot of poorly designed devices that lack correct protection, in the eCig world one can point to the mechanical mods which are basically a battery directly attached to a coil, with nothing but a switch in between. Dangerous and stupid. There are some very good eCig devices that have excellent current and reverse-bias protection, but they cost more.
3. The last cause is #1, the improper handling of these cells, such as shorting spare e-cigarette cells with metal objects in a pocket, or using bad chargers. Also, as Tepix and jhayward said, replacing a protected 18650 with a unprotected cell is very dangerous.
Counterfeiting of batteries generally, and counterfeiting on Amazon generally, have become critical path problems for a lot of hobbyist communities where having a quality supply chain is safety critical. This is not new. It's true as well in things, such as the car community, where many online supply chains are corrupted with counterfeit safety-critical items like wheels and brake calipers.
One of the realities of the world is that "you get what you pay for" is actually true. This has become clear specifically around the batteries issue and also in the car community where specialist online retailers who charge a premium are the go-to places to buy safety-critical components, specifically and exactly because anyone who cares does not want to accept the risk of a safety-critical item failing to save a few bucks. On the flip-side, many people in hobbyist communities are ignorant cheapskates and unfortunately their penny-pinching drive helps to proliferate counterfeiting.
"You get what you pay for" is far from guaranteed.
As an aside, I know it's typically discouraged from commenting about downvotes, but within minutes my comment in the thread was heavily downvoted and I don't understand why?
> a lot of hobbyist communities where having a quality supply chain is safety critical.
Thanks, it makes lots of sense.
Personally, I do play with electronics, but mainly radio and digital devices, not hobbyists RC toys and models. So I didn't know counterfeit cells in the supply chain is so serious, that it's even a trouble in the hobbyists community (where most people know what they're doing).
When playing with homebrew electronics, I actively avoid lithium-ion batteries and use Ni-MH when possible, as I know one mistake can be fatal. I realized my decision is correct and I should continue doing it.
Additionally, you can rely on other reviews.
When I buy 18650, I thoroughly review it for others.
Usually, the ones that come with some other items are cheap 18650 with low capacity and with sand (counterfeit / faking weight).
I want to point out something for everyone: there are cheap Chinese 18650 which are solid! For example, I've personally used official Liitokala batteries and the ones that I used are 100% genuine, high-capacity 18650.
As with everything else with life, you need to be careful and check reviews before you buy something.
>And it’s easy for third-party retailers to disappear after selling a defective or dangerous product, even if they pop up a few weeks later under a different name and address, again selling dangerous products.
Every time a counterfeit 18650 blows up, I blame LG, Samsung, Panasonic, etc. for this policy. It's the root of the problem.
This doesn't surprise me. I don't order batteries from Amazon because all of the batteries I've gotten from them have been counterfeit. It is not worth buying that item from them because of the risk of fire and malfunction. And the way they commingle stock from unrelated sellers makes it very easy to buy an OEM battery that is actually a counterfeit.
In my opinion they are criminally negligent for not informing customers that counterfeit or third-party batteries can result in explosion or fire, and they should stop selling batteries entirely.
And it's pretty clear both from what happened here and from my own experience that they simply don't care about counterfeiting on their network.
If you reread the article, you'll see that the article mentioned a series of related issues, one was about the defective laptop (and other off-the-shelf) battery packs. I think everyone knows something about it already, even the great kernel hacker Alan Cox was a victim! His 3rd-party laptop battery pack exploded in 2006.
* https://slashdot.org/story/06/09/24/062217/alan-coxs-explodi...
But the article mentioned another issue as well, which is the purchasing and handling 18650 cells by individuals (mainly for e-cigarettes), which I found was something new and different. Thus I posted the discussion above.
The other problem, and one that is more distinctly Amazon, is the proliferation of poorly-made budget 18650s as well as counterfeit re-wraps of junk 18650s sold as quality brands such as LG. Often these are low-drain devices that should only be used for things like flashlights, but are sold as if they are high-current-drain batteries. This is also driven by the demand for eCig batteries. The side effect of this is that these junk batteries end up being purchased for non-eCig devices.
The best advice is: Don't buy lithium batteries on Amazon. It is not worth the risk.
I think this isn't so much a battery problem as an Amazon problem. Banning the sale of individual cells just means that the only batteries available to the average consumer are the worst-of-the-worst aliexpress grade garbage. People are obviously buying these cells, banning them just means that the only remaining sources will be illegitimate. And Amazon has this problem with a lot of products; searching "Arduino" returns entirely knockoff boards for me on the first page and I have heard it's nearly-impossible to find an Apple charger that meets electrical standards. I wonder how long Amazon can burn through goodwill before consumers begin to regard them as equivalent to Ebay/aliexpress?
So while I personally really appreciate being able to cheaply source things directly from China, I also understand what I'm getting into and temper my expectations. I think many people have the false expectation that if they purchase something from a reputable retailer like Amazon the product will be safe & within spec, which for certain products isn't the case.
[0] https://www.digikey.com/products/en/battery-products/batteri...
[1] https://www.jauch.com/downloadfile/5bf56dddc28a94cce2e93a717...
Amazon’s logistics advantage is huge, but unless I absolutely need it tomorrow they’re rarely the best option. Oddly enough, there are a few resellers of marked up Chinese electronics that have established a certain amount of brand trust with me - “DROK” and “SMAKN” come to mind. Brands that provide a reasonable amount of curation to help you avoid the absolute worst crap, but are small enough not to attract counterfieters themselves. It’s an odd niche that Amazon’s failure of inventory control has created.
It just shocked me that someone felt the brand was trusted enough to justify faking.
Google mooch battery guide. He's a member of the vaping comunity and tests batteries for vaping which usually need high current (and capacity) ratings.
He also has links to trusted suppliers of liion batteries.
If you arefrom Europe, I can vouch for nkon.nl
Something to be aware of - there are mainly three classes of Arduino boards in the marketplace:
1. Name-brand Arduinos (ie - those marketed and sold, or resold, that come from Arduino.cc)
2. Knock-off Arduinos
3. Counterfeit Arduinos
Many in the hobby understand what #1 is, and I encourage everyone just getting into the Arduino to purchase an actual Arduino Uno first, just to support the community and to get a solid "reference" product.
Where many get confused, though, is on what the difference is between #2 and #3 products. What is the difference between a "knock-off" and a "counterfeit" Arduino?
Ultimately, it comes down to copyrights and trademarks. Arduino has a specific set of marks, verbiage, colors, and symbol placement that they put on their boards, which are designed to convey the notion that "this is a genuine Arduino board".
Any third-party board that attempts to replicate this design in part or entirety is infringing on that, and should be considered a counterfeit board. This extends somewhat to using the name "Arduino" and especially "Uno"; it has long been a "thing" that if you build a custom Arduino for sale, that Arduino.cc would like you to name it something else, and ideally not include the suffix "-uino" (mainly because it makes no sense from the standpoint of the Italian language, IIRC). Using the name "Uno", IIRC, is also verboten, as it is a protected trademark of Arduino.cc as well.
Beyond that, the Arduino as a device is completely open-source; anyone can take the reference schematic and board designs and start making them in his or her basement and nobody will care - unless you start using those trademarked and copyrighted items/symbols/etc.
So if you see a board like that, try to report it to the community. There are ways to do this on the site to report it directly to Arduino.cc (or there were, last I looked). Alternatively, find a thread about this issue (they are all over the Arduino.cc forums) and post what you know there, or start a new thread if all the old ones are "dead".
So how do you tell a counterfeit from a knockoff? Well - a true knockoff can look identical in shape and placement of parts, but what you really want to look for is the lack of use of those IP protected items already mentioned. Look for boards that aren't colored the same, that don't use the same markings, that are named differently. Look for vendors/sellers of the products who almost seemingly go out of their way to differentiate their products from the actual Arduino boards.
Tons of them are out there, many offer options not available at all on the original Arduino Uno boards (for instance, on the QFP 328 there are extra analog input pins not found on the PDIP version - some boards bring those extra pins out to headers!). You can find boards with extra integrated peripherals, ones that don't follow the Arduino header layout at all, plus specialized products meant for a particular market, but which could be repurposed for your own use if you wanted to (popular examples are the various ATMega-based 3D printer and CNC controller boards available - there are also a few specialty robotics controllers on the market. There used to be, but not so much anymore as things have migrated toward ARM and other embedded controllers - boards that were meant for multi-rotor drones and the like).
You will find boards out there that "skate the line" - they may use similar colors, similar (but not the same) markings or symbols, etc; for those you'll have to use your best judgement and conscience to decide on buying.
Also note that there are certain boards which exist as only knockoff or "counterfeit"; one can even be hesitant about the latter. These are boards that used to be made by Arduino.cc, but have since been stopped. Take for instance, the Arduino Pro Mini:
https://store.arduino.cc/usa/arduino-pro-mini
This is a nice little board that gives you everything of a full-sized Arduino Uno, in a nice little package that can be easily embedded into a project, much like a PDIP IC, without the bulk of a larger Arduino Uno or other offerings (like the Nano) which add options you may not need (ie, USB interface), or the issues involving embedding an ATMega328 directly into your project (not a great argument, I know). Unfortunately, you can't purchase an official version, only knockoffs are available.
Finally, there are also "Arduino" boards that are only available as third-party options; the popular "Lilypad" variant, for instance, or the interesting "ATmega32u4" based USB "stick" style boards that can plug directly into a USB slot, allowing you to develop all kinds of interesting "hacks" (password or token dongles, keyboard loggers, etc - or just a tiny on-the-go dev board for a laptop).
https://www.amazon.com/Headlamp-Headlight-Rechargeable-Water...
Still for sale on Amazon. So it’s just bare 18650’s they won’t sell anymore?
The first 2 digits are the diameter in millimeters, the remaining digits are the height in tenths of milimeters. So a CR2032 is 20mm across and 3.2mm tall. The "CR" portion is what indicates the battery chemistry.
The correct IEC notation for would be ICR18/650 where the first two letters specify the specific anode and cathode material (I've picked the letters most commonly seen in examples). Those letters are absolutely critical in determining the nominal voltage, because without them, we could even be describing say an alkaline disposable cell of the same shape (LR18/650 would be such an non-rechargeable alkaline battery of the same shape).
I won’t buy any non NRTL certified (i.e. UL, TUV, etc) electronics that plug into AC power. Of course it could still be counterfeit, but these chargers were not NRTL certified.
https://www.amazon.com/VOJO-Charger-Adaptive-Charging-QUALCO...
The Belkin ones are UL certified, and I bought several of those with no issues after 2 years. Problem is Amazon does not list NRTL certification, so it’s a crap shoot.
The NRTL certification is a big deal at my employer. We can't buy anything over 48 VDC that isn't certified, or we will lose our insurance for the facility.
I'm surprised home insurers are not cracking down on this stuff. I'd like to know the statistics of house fires caused by cheap electronics.
These are a good example. CE, FCC, RoHS have nothing to do with safety (I'm I'll bet those are fake markings too too). You are plugging in the cheapest Chinesium into a 120V, 15A circuit
https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Colorful-Adapter-Replacement-....
This "Amazon Basics" one is pretty funny. "Note: product is certified according to a UL standard (not by UL)." Does this mean Amazon is liable when your house burns down?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0773BHCVD/ref=psdc_2407761011_t1_...
The "safety info" for the above is worthless:
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91IWSM8gvRL...
FWIW, here are the actual NRTL makrings
I feel bad pumping specific brands, but I've become an Anker fan for chargers. I was a fan of Aukey, but that's since faded from having one physically break (obviously then taking it apart), and their lackluster USB C implementation that feels too close to rebadged Chineseum. Monoprice is still good for cables, but has unfortunately gone down the high-overhead free-shipping path.
But I don't understand this idea that it's standard to just go to Amazon, type in the name of something, and click buy. That has never been sensible! And the way it's talked about, I can't think it's solely out of laziness. Either people aren't comfortable visiting multiple web stores, can't fathom making a shopping list to hit shipping minimums, or the sunk cost of Prime is a hell of a drug?
And what really amazes me is that I always see these comparisons to eBay, that assume eBay is some place where you always receive counterfeit junk. In my experience, you know exactly what type of seller you're dealing with on eBay - traditional merchant / professional refurbisher / private individual / China direct / etc. Because eBay puts this up and front, it's very plain to see. Most sellers want to please, and for the ones that don't (mainly individual sellers who don't want to eat the shipping cost), you open a case and do a bit of rigmarole, but still eventually get your money back. (And if you're buying inexpensive sundries like toiletries where you don't want even the possibility of that hassle, just go to a B&M vendor's website directly)
Whereas it seems Amazon works to obscure the actual supplier. The article is about an "HP battery for about $15". That is not an "HP battery", but rather an unbranded third party battery made to fit in an HP laptop. For this type of product especially, you're lucky to find one that retains charge any longer than the return period. Co-mingling seems like practically begging unaccountable suppliers to slip the quality even further!
Buying this kind of thing you either seek out someone trying to make a new brand for replacements (who will have navigated the Chineseum), or for less popular stuff (I just replaced a Nexus 6 battery), you try to sniff out a decent seller who won't be selling the factory rejects.
It's all work, and if you aren't willing to do it yourself, you can pay for it by buying a replacement battery from the manufacturer from a legitimate distribution channel, eg no co-mingling! Obscuring that this work even exists seems to be Amazon's goal, and it's no wonder that as time goes on more sellers are exploiting this.
PS I'm actually in the market for 16850 cells sometime soon. Those seem counterfeit-worthy enough that I'll actually ask here if anyone has links to favorite trustworthy suppliers!
Are there any warning signs for bad cells?
At this point I'm not sure I'm going to be keeping my Amazon Prime. It no longer pays for itself when I can't be sure that what I'm ordering is going to be legit.
Lithium-ion cells do not contain acid. The electrolyte is composed of salts, solvents, and additives.
Calling the contents an acid which the average person knows is dangerous is arguably better than being precise but confusing people into not realizing the true danger.
The reporter could have substituted "chemicals" for "acid", which would have been less imprecise, but is still a scary enough word for average readers to interpret as dangerous.
Lowering expectations/standards for journalism is a slippery slope.
Acids aren’t inherently dangerous. And I know plenty of “average” people that know that vinegar is an acid and swear by it as a household cure-all to a fault. Same goes for carbolic acid.
This is all stupid when we have perfectly correct adjectives in the English language to use like caustic, toxic, noxious, incendiary, poisonous etc.
"...or whatever the colloquial term is for the shit that they put in batteries these days. 'Acid' is what we used to call it."
3rd party seller merchandise commingles with Amazon products, leading to counterfeits... EVEN on "Sold by Amazon" and "Fulfilled by Amazon" products.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/02/amazo...
Amazon's supply chain is compromised. There are fakes and counterfeits all over the site. Its been this way for years and Amazon hasn't done anything to fix it.
--------
I've been buying books directly from publishers and buying other stuff from more specialty shops (Adafruit, Digikey for Electronics, Newegg / Microcenter for computer parts, Target / Walmart for general merchandise)