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I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

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a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea.

b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.

> a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea.

It's the opposite, it's that old school entreprise type software & frameworks are getting less used.

> b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.

I think it's a mix of both, getting sued by Oracle probably did not help.

The stack overflow survey is a good source of info on this. Java is the 5th, but HTML/CSS is 2nd and SQl is 3rd.

The only languages that are used more currently are Python and Javascript.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology

Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.

All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.

I bet that in 5 years Kotlin will have as much market as other alternative JVMs languages have today.

And regarding Google, Kotlin is not among the beloved ChromeOS and Fuchsia languages.

So it depends very much on their internal politics.

Is there any official language for ChromeOS?

I believe it supports Most Android and Linux apps now.

Yes, it is called JavaScript.

Android and Linux apps support is made via containers, aka they are not native to the OS, and isn't supported across all Chromebooks models being sold.

And even then, there are support issues.

Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google.

And there is Kotlin-Native but the likelihood of JetBrains reimplementing the entire JVM SDK is pretty slim. Not to mention all of the common third party libraries e.g. Guava, HTTPClient.

> Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google.

Yes but there's a lot of efforts from Google to support the language as well since now it's the new Android language.

Android supports Java, Kotlin and C++.

Kotlin is just one option more, and the tooling is still not mature as Java.

Specially in compile speed, incremental compilation, debugging, speed in type completion, FFI.

I would not put C++ with the other ones, unfortunately Android has a lot of API only available from Java.

Agreed about the 2nd class status of C++, still that is the official message, about all three languages.

https://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals?...

"Android apps can be written using Kotlin, Java, and C++ languages. "

Compiler speed is a fantastic tradeoff. I'm made of meat that runs at maybe 0.0001 MHz after coffee, so I want to offload anything I can to the compiler!

That's a very sensible standpoint.

I rather bet in platform languages, without extra layers to debug, FFI and additional tooling not available to all IDEs for the respective platform.

PagerDuty, Zoom, Slack —- seems like a great time for enterprise software.

PagerDuty - losing money

https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo...

Zoom - a tiny net income of 7.6 million

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-z...

Slack - losing money.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD

So why is it a “great time” for enterprise software?

By entreprise software, I mean the traditional heavy Java frameworks & tooling.

That is not Enterprise Software. It is less the language and the frameworks which are making it Enterprise but the requirements placed on them and the software development lifecycles.

Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities?

> Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities?

The same way as any other language? With audits? I don't get your comment.

To write the same functionality I need 10x the packages (from 9x vendors) in JavaScript compared to a Java/.NET ecosystems. The infamous left-pad packages is a sample for something found in the base class libraries of the other languages. And this does not only stand true for vulnerability analysis but also for other analyze jobs like for licenses or gdpr compliance. The amount of work is just higher with the amount of packages you use.

I think the net amount of code ends up being pretty much the same, it's just spread over several repositories/sources/owners. That does mean it's more difficult without tooling to trawl through, but it's not like it's an order of magnitude or anything.

The interesting part is how professional the packages are handled. For example in JavaScript there a thousand of authors with very different understanding of their "responsibility". Some do not even provide a license (do not even care to put a "WTFPL" or "Unlicense" on it) and do not read bugs. Others, have a emergency response team and publish CVE records. The less packages I have, the better I can select them and monitor them.

Java/.NET/Python ecosystems tend to be more professional with this regards. JavaScript catches up but is not completely there yet (you can see this with the amount of repositories who add licenses in 2016/2017 timeframe, years after creation).

Hence, same amount of code, much more work (it is a magnitude).

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