Tesla Model 3 Effect – Chevy Dealers Discount 2019 Bolt by Almost $10k
torquenews.com
torquenews.com
That's like saying wireless chargers on Amazon have to discount down to $13.99 because Apple promised to sell the AirPower someday. Those two things are just unrelated: it might be plain old supply and demand.
My guess: Chevy has to discount the Bolt because it's simply not selling that well. They already had to discontinue the Volt, their plug-in hybrid.
I imagine much of it would still be under warranty too as well no?
So I wonder what he got it for at auction?
The only situations where I would trust self-autonomous driving are: (a) 5mph bumper to bumper traffic and (b) I-5 between SF and LA on a dry, clear day with little traffic around.
It' the type of car that would appeal to they type of person that would buy a Camry. Except those people avoid GM products.
The article is wrong. The first $35k models started being delivered a couple weeks back.
https://www.autonews.com/sales/sales-fall-saar-dips-1641-mil...
Disclaimer: I work for GM
(Still six degrees of stupid that made me as an extremely minor shareholder somewhat dissatisfied. The Gen 1 Volt was a hatchback and near the cross-over border line. An intent at building it at Hamtranck was to push the plant towards cross-overs. The Gen 2 retooled the Volt to a more traditional sedan and more clearly Cruze relative, which presumably was a cost savings at Hamtranck, but put the Volt right on the chopping block for the plant closure a couple years later. Even ignoring that GM probably only closed Sedans because they were playing shareholder-peer-pressure follow the leader since Ford did it, throwing away the Volt was so many orders of magnitude of stupid. Expect GM to announce a new cross-over in one or three years looking almost just like the Gen 1 Volt and with an entirely new name because that would be less confusing to consumers than not discontinuing the Volt at all.)
One may gain some insight from looking at sales numbers.
The REAL Tesla effect, TM3 if you want, is that the Bolt exists as a two hundred mile plug EV at all. I seriously doubt Chevrolet would have pushed so hard to rework the Spark EV into the Bolt if not for two reasons. First being the PR win over Tesla and second to score more ZEV credits which after 2017 year (2018+) rewarded EVs more points than other solutions.
I like the exterior of the Bolt but hate the interior, from dash to front seats. It is not a purpose built EV and while the packaging is good it could have been better.
GM's mention that future EVs would be around Cadillac were disappointing and there has been zero hint that they will refresh or tweak the current Bolt which is also disappointing.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/BoltEV/comments/8r672c/seats_horrib...
The Bolt is based on the Sonic I think. Built in the US. It's a bit bigger than a Honda Fit, and much bigger than the Spark EV which is more the size of the Toyota Yaris hatchback.
I think it's more the case that EV pricing is in flux at the moment, so you get situations like this where 2 cars from different segments were priced the same.
I’m also sure people are enthused about quality and self driving but that doesn’t do much for me.
Last weekend I forgot to throw the charger in the trunk for 2 hour drive to my parents with 240V@30A. It almost but not quite short enough for round trip so I normally top off before the return trip.
Without the charger network I would have had to turn around early but with it I just made a 15 min stop to top off at the supercharger.
All auto-companies are showing declining sales. Ford, GM, Toyota, and Tesla.
I think your supposition here is most correct. The car market is declining, so the various car companies are now cutting prices and competing on price even more strongly. Some car models will be cut out and discontinued as a result.
It seems the last "boom" cycle was 2018 or so. So we're now entering the years where most people are NOT buying cars. In 2023 or so, all of the buyers from 2018 will be buying cars again.
There's nothing mystical about this behavior, its just how the crowds work in general.
https://www.autonews.com/sales/sales-fall-saar-dips-1641-mil...
The car auto cycle is well known and well documented. I don't think there's any good economic theory to describe why it exists... it just... exists... for whatever reason.
> instant supply and demand
Instant supply and demand certainly doesn't exist in practice, even if we assume it to exist in theory. It takes over a year for factories to be built, and when people hear news about a new car, it can take months (or even years) before they decide they want that particular car.
Humans work on a monthly time-scale, even if we assume in economics that their decisions are made instantaneously.
IMO, what explains the higher price is because reliability is so much better than 20 years ago. 100k miles is so cake that no one brags about reaching 100k miles anymore. In fact, most people today are bragging about "oil-change + tire maintenance only for 100k miles".
Its completely reasonable to buy a car with 100k miles on it, and hope for it to last another 100k miles on top of it (or ~7 years or so, depending on driving habits).
In effect, a 5-year old car today is approximately worth the same a brand-new car from the 90s. You're gonna get +100k miles off of it and not have to worry too much about maintenance issues.
If you bought a used BMW or Volvo in the 90s with 150k km on it, you would definitely have a reasonable expectation that it would last another 7-8 years. The people I've known with extreme mileage have been like 400k or 500k km.
With service schedules, free warranties, and checkups... that's probably not a problem anymore in the USA. So it could be a change in culture that is allowing people to drive further these days. A lot of cars these days come with 3-years of free service at the dealership, allowing for oil changes (and other maintenance items) to be checked on regularly.
I dunno how it works in other countries, but my understanding is that it wasn't always like this in the USA. So buying used cars with bad maintenance problems was more common back in the 90s. In contrast, you can often get the service history of the used cars you buy today (if you're buying certified used, for example).
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So I don't really know why cars are lasting much longer these days. But I definitely know that back in the day, 100k miles was a thing worth bragging about.
I've mostly heard horror stories from my dad about how some of his neighbors didn't know how to take care of their cars.
> In fact back then car owners probably had more awareness of how oil changes worked since tasks such as oil changes, spark plug replacement, tune ups, brake drum/pad replacement were much more commonly done by the car owner than they are today.
On that point, I think I can agree, at least based on the stories I've heard of that time. But the question is: what about all the car owners who didn't know how to do those things? The car owners who weren't in the know?
It wasn't like today where you could easily look this stuff up, you had to have been brought up correctly in the correct car culture to know those sorts of facts.
Only when cars broke down, they would come around to the "car guy" in the neighborhood to ask for help. And that's when you hear the crazy stories about how many people didn't know how to handle their cars.
Knowing that your car needed regular servicing wasn't some secret fact that you had to somehow search out or be raised in the proper household to know. Like today it was common knowledge and service information as such oil type and frequency of service was included in owners manuals just as it is today.
Did some people then not take care of their cars? Yes, but it is the same today.
As for how you learned to fix or service a car yourself if you weren't raised in the "correct car culture", you went to the library and looked it up in the Chilton repair manual for your vehicle. Most libraries had some physically and a more complete collection on microfilm from which you could print out the pages you needed.
I was in middle school and high school during the 80s. In this time it was common for middle school/junior high students to be required to take industrial arts along with home economics. Industrial arts included things like wood and metal working, printing and in many school districts small engine repair. In my school district during part of 7th grade all students tore down and rebuild a 4 stroke lawn mower engine.
The manufacturing quality lessons of Honda and Toyota started to hit US in the 90s. I toured a Ford engineering division around then, where they just starting to adopt ideas like empowered workers and continuous measurable improvement. Anyone could stop the line if they saw a problem.
Increasingly many manufacturers apparently don’t really care about the final on the road price staying as low as possible all that much within reason; it’s more about how expensive a car can we push on people at lease rates their wallet will stretch to. The “you can drive this for just $xxx a month!” is the conversation the dealer typically focuses on, probably to obfuscate the true cost as much as anything else. This admittedly applies more to say luxury European brands, where many model lines have (adjusting for inflation) gotten more luxurious and expensive as the focus has primarily shifted to leasing in many markets. There’s similar issues with the truck market as well, and America still buys lots of these every year.
I have the feeling that people are just buying bigger (unnecessarily bigger) cars, and the high trim levels are also very expensive compared to what they offer.
Here in HI, the best selling vehicle is the Toyota Tacoma, selling for just over $30k. That is inconceivable to me.
Maybe, due to ride-sharing companies - Uber and Lyft?
The standard EV-evangelist response to this is “take the train” or “rent a car for the weekend”, but I’m sorry, those just aren’t comfortable for me – the train lacks the freedom and sense of adventure, and rentals usually smell funny, among other things. Altering my lifestyle to suit the car’s limitations means it was the wrong car in the first place: The car should serve me, not the other way around. The Tesla’s longer range and presence of Supercharger stations along the routes are totally irrelevant for my daily commute, but they completely change the game when you include my other driving.
With any other EV, I would need a second car to address the other part of my usage, and that means twice the insurance, twice the registration cost, twice the driveway-space, and the chance of forgetting something important in the one car while I’m using the other. And feeling like a glutton for owning an “extra” vehicle.
That being said, I still haven't bought a Tesla for a handful of reasons, but nothing else even comes close to meeting my needs.
With 50 mile all-electric range available, these cars can be pure electric in most daily-driver situations. In fact, Volt drivers are reporting 85% electric to 15% gasoline usage, typically (with those gasoline usage being those long trips that rack up a lot of miles).
With Gen1 Volts hitting 100k miles, its more or less proven itself as a methodology and as a general technology. Unfortunately, Volt has been discontinued, but the Honda Clarity is basically an identical vehicle (albeit offered by a different car company).
You're right, a PHEV is exactly the right answer, and my next car will either be an EV or a PHEV. The Clarity PHEV looks comparable to the Prius Prime, and I'll have to test-drive one soon!
On the other hand, many people "overpurchase" things in their life based on "I might" stipulations that are actually very rare.
I wonder how many pickups have actually hauled things in the bed on more than rare circumstances? How many jeeps have actually been used off-road?
conversely, how many people sell their perfectly good vehicles for no good reason than they like something new?
For high speed DC Charging for trips, Tesla definitely got this right the first time; and still has the advantage for now. They’ve been the best for long road trips. That advantage is narrowing.
CCS or Chademo (the high speed charging standards everyone else use) equipment are catching up fast, being deployed in a similar fashion along interstates by Volkswagen; through their “electrify America” subsidiary.
And EVgo and Chargepoint have been extremely focused on Whole Foods, Walmart, Local Shopping malls, parking garages, etc.
I live in San Francisco and mostly drive my car in the Bay Area, with a few long trips here and there. I wanted to make sure that all my use cases were covered. I did a lot of homework.
I noticed that in San Francisco proper, not a single supercharger for Tesla has been opened yet - the nearest one is in Daly City. Anything available in SF currently is slower “destination charging.”
Seems that if one has the convenience of garage charging at home or charging at work, get a Tesla M3. One won’t need an abundance of superchargers available to them unless on road trips. Local coverage will be less important.
If one will be proudly parking their new Tesla M3 mostly on the street, can’t charge at work, and Will have to rely solely on public infrastructure, making sure there is a supercharger nearby that can fit into one’s routine is crucial.
In San Francisco, M3 owners will have to get used to shopping at Serramonte Center in Daly City until the San Francisco supercharger opens. The queue can be a pretty long from what my friend tells me, but they do have a nice Target.
One can charge a Tesla M3 at any low speed AC level 2 charger with the Tesla supplied J1772A adapter - adds about 11 to 30 miles of range every hour. These are pretty ubiquitous at this point.
In a pinch I am comforted by the ease of DC Fast charging everywhere; CCS on my Bolt EV gives me that. Since I know I can charge In all corners of SF and the Bay Area at high-speed, anxiety is nonexistent.
I maybe go on long trips (Los Angeles, etc.) only every six months or so with my Bolt EV. That’s been a pretty easy experience so far. Lots of ccs/chademo charging on 101 and 99. The 5 is getting up to speed as well. More importantly the daily convenience factor locally is key for me.
If one buys a Tesla model S or X, this problem can be alleviated with a $450 ChaDemo adapter; and can charge pretty much anywhere - Tesla Supercharger or not. This is probably ideal. Note this adapter is not compatible with the m3.
I would love a Model S if I could justify it. I would consider a long range model 3 when it DC fast charge on non Tesla hardware in the US. (European M3 have this connection instead of the supercharger connection.)
99% of the time I get by with overnight charging at home. Doing my “Buying an electric vehicle” homework suggested I take a look at my local Charging infrastructure by downloading the PlugShare app. Knowing what’s available where I usually go really made it easy to integrate EVs into my routine.
Why would I buy a Chevy Bolt for the same price as a Model 3, even if I have to buy it "off menu"? (And deliveries have started, BTW: https://electrek.co/2019/04/15/tesla-delivers-35000-model-3/) Or slightly more for the more available Standard Plus Model 3?
The Bolt is wonderful, but it's limited to 50kW charging and even more important it has no access to a consistent, strategically placed network of well-maintained chargers spanning the continent. Basically, the Bolt is still a city commuter which cannot feasibly take road trips of any significant length (outside of charging corridors in the Northeast and West coast), not too different from a Leaf, functionally.
At least with the Volt, you could still take road trips the same as any other car.
(And all of this ignores the panoramic glass roof, the autopilot features, the superior cosmetics, the improved per-mile efficiency, etc, etc.)
And yes, GM is in the same situation as Tesla, having the federal EV credit phased out. And that's a major shame. GM, with the Volt in particular, was a major pioneer in modern electric cars, along with Tesla. And now both are being almost punished for their foresight and initiative. Shows how very little the Congress/Administration/federal government currently values emissions reductions or even rational industrial policy... China very likely may end up owning the EV market.
Isn't that called "Chargepoint"?
I travel cross country in the US frequently on the Supercharger network (Model S), without any range anxiety or fear of getting to an inoperable station late at night with little battery range left. Many hotels also have destination chargers, so I can charge overnight at the hotel while I sleep and leave with a full charge. I could not do this with any other EV.
Shouldn't that be enough to charge a mostly empty battery to mostly full over a 30 minute lunch break?
- EVGO is excellent. They have L3 (chademo/sae) chargers in lots of locations, and they work. I believe they own the chargers. The chargers seem to be 400v/100a = 40kw.
- Chargepoint is very good. They have reliable chargers, just not many L3 chargers. Most of their chargers are L2 (~6kw). I don't think they own chargers, or they own only some of them. But they are reliable and/or have good service.
- Blink has always disappointed me - L3 is unreliable and always broken. Some L2 chargers work.
plugshare is your friend.
Apple weren't out of the woods when the iPod came out, they weren't really making money. Kodak's revenue dwarfed that of Apple. Same with Sony, better known for audio products at the time.
I think your analysis of China taking control of the EV market is correct. China has a better culture for innovation and an extremely competitive domestic market. Whatever survives that will be something that legacy U.S. auto makers will not be able to compete against. Cheaper wages has nothing to do with it, lower environmental standards will have nothing to do with it, neither will patents. In China they have robotised factories making robots, these robots will be making our cars.
Back in 2017 when the first Bolt model year came out, I've got $4k cash offer mailer from GM and another stackable $5k off MSRP from a large regional GM volume dealership.
And Nissan Leaf have been having $10k off MSRP discounts that are subsidized by regional power utilities too.
This is a common trend way before $35k Model entered volume production.
I ended up buying a used one. I’ll buy a Tesla next, or another used, just to not deal with scumbag dealerships.
But I bet you didn't, because you don't really care. you wanted a Tesla because it's a hype car.
Got mine on March 30th, and love it.
I'm glad there are so many adopters for EVs (Tesla or otherwise) willing to put up with all the downsides until the technology and infrastructure matures to a point where it is competitive (price, charge time, range, charging station at every gas station, etc.)
Incidentally I ordered my first one today, a model x with the new drive trains etc. It will take a few months before it arrives.
Speaking of the design: On the drive, we noticed that the seats in the Bolt were narrow and uncomfortable. The odd thing was that they had plenty of room to make the seats a few inches wider. Doug DeMuro noticed the same thing in his review: https://youtu.be/d2ogGZXmepY?t=624
I've never been inside either car, but looking at interior pictures on the net, the Bolt looks a lot better. It looks like it still has physical knobs for things like climate control. Tesla appears to be all virtual controls.
The lack of physical controls is close to a deal breaker for me.
This car is a gem. Cheaper than a Tesla M3, and available before.
It shows once more that car buying is more about to be in a cult//group than really about the car itself. 90% of the attraction of the Model3 is that people will think you are somehow hype.
This is the norm and always has been as far as I am aware. If you are buying a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord or other popular, value oriented (lower margin) car then there may be less wiggle room in the sticker, but for a car with an MSRP around 40k there's probably a fair amount of room to change the price.
Also, a car that never sells makes $0 in revenue. People tend to buy cars with their heart and the cool factor/brand value of a Tesla 3 is orders of magnitude higher than almost anything chevy makes.
238 miles is close to the Tesla Model 3's EPA rated 250 miles. Here's an EPA comparison of the Bolt, Model 3, and Golf: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39786&...