What predicts students’ drinking habits? How much they think others are drinking | Hacker News Reader

What predicts students’ drinking habits? How much they think others are drinking

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122 pointsrustoo123 comments

Having come from Latin america and studied in a US college, it's always jarring just how much students in the US drink. Don't get me wrong, whenever I went back home we had a few drinks and some who definitely had bad habits. But US Students were just animals, entire bottles of liquor for a single person, keg stands, passing out for hours just to do it again later tonight.

Frats are definitely the main culprit of spreading this unhealthy lifestyle but I also find that having the drinking age be so high (21 in the US) really gives kids this insane pressure to show off or glamorizes it as an "adult thing" to do.

My family let have a few drinks once I hit 16 during family events and was regularly going out at 18 without ever feeling the need to get wasted or having peer pressure of drinking. I learned my limits early on and rarely got wasted since it just didn't appeal to me.

Meanwhile, the frat parties were the only way to meet girls on campus and gladly supplied alcohol to anyone who paid. Definitely a recipe for disaster and after a few mishaps I just skipped out on them entirely.

I think they should just lower the age and put the onus on parents to guide their kids toward better drinking habits, smoking is way worse for both you and those around you and the age is 18.

Having seen students in Europe and from the US, agreed. It definitely helps to be lower.

I did an exchange program (from the US) to Germany, and I did notice parents having a moderating effect on drinking, but then there was an overnight party at the end of the schoolyear, which meant kids weren't going home to their parents.

Drinking wise, it was basically identical to most parties I saw in college in the US, except the kids were 16-17 instead of 18-19.

Pair that with increasing the driving age to 18 or 21 and you'd have a massive reduction in college drinking deaths and teen driving deaths.

I'm not sure that would ever work in America. We are sufficiently spread out that public transportation would be difficult (if possible) to implement. And I'm not talking about NYC or SF; remember, not every one lives there. Much of the rest of the nation is very spread out, which is not an immediately solvable problem.

Regardless, I needed a car as a teen; my parents were both busy and my brother and I needed to do things (including work). 16 is just about the age that people start doing stuff, so that's when they start driving. It's also when people can first get jobs, so important there too.

Maybe there would be a reduction, but you would hurt a lot of innocent people in other ways. It is not for us to suffer to curb the excesses of others.

Statistically, teen driving has already decreased, in part due to the abundance of technology allowing conversations and hangouts without physically being in the same location.

> It's also when people can first get jobs, so important there too.

This too is statistically reducing.

The statistical reductions are down slightly from extremely high numbers. And for what it's worth, people shouldn't have to have a reason to do something, the government should have a reason to restrict it. Namely, the person being restricted must be harming some one else. Many teens are perfectly good drivers; I was never in an accident/received a ticket and have not ever.

Neither of the things I mentioned are because of government, strictly. They are results of social changes from technology and job market changes from technology - sprinkle in some helicopter parenting and too academic focused 16 year olds.

In my opinion, there is one really good reason for US drinking age to be higher: it is much more common for American teenagers to drive personal vehicles, so if you lower the drinking age, you would (at least, I believe) cause a drastic increase in DUIs and related accidents and deaths.

It makes drinking exponentially cooler. Putting something out of reach elevates it in young people's minds. Crack was cool back when only the rich could afford it, now that it's been democratized through a genius chemistry rework it's affordable enough for homeless people and has a terrible image. Drinking needs to undergo a similar process here in the States.

> Crack was cool back when only the rich could afford it

Cocaine (specifically, powder), sure; crack was always low status. In fact, that was the whole source of the political brouhaha over crack vs. powder sentencing disparity.

You might reduce the stigma if you lowered the age. People continue to perceive drinking as an act of "rebellion" even after 21, mostly because it was for so long. Besides, it doesn't work. I am literally the only person I have ever known who did not drink in HS.

This was also the primary reason the drinking age was (re-)raised to 21: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_...

Alcohol is normalized from a young age in the UK, yet it's abused by adults more heavily than here. I don't think that's a panacea.

Something I can finally contribute to on HN!

There’s probably a few causes for how we abuse alcohol in the UK.

1. Most pubs close relatively early (11pm-1am), so after work you don’t have too much time to spend before you have to decide between a club or home.

2. Anecdotally, although most people know their limits. I see people in my circles tend to drink at the rate of the fastest drinker and “catchup”, especially if doing rounds.

3. We do have a bit of a binge drinking culture. Our culture (in my opinion) tends to encourage getting drunk (as long as you don’t cause harm to others).

The culture of buying rounds causes a problem. You don't want to miss a round, because it's a free beer.

Out to lunch during business hours in the UK, my colleagues would routinely put back 2-3 pints. That's absurd to me.

It's very expensive, though.

My experience living in several European countries basically echoes the parent comment.

Countries where alcohol is normalized since childhood, cheap, widely sold and allowed (basically the Mediterranean countries: Spain, Italy, Greece, possibly France although I don't know France that much) -> people drink but tend to have sane drinking habits.

Countries where alcohol is frowned upon, heavily taxed, expensive or difficult to buy (Sweden, Norway, the UK, etc.) -> people abuse drink and just don't know when to stop.

Germany has cheap easily available alcohol at a very young age and a massive drinking culture.

Correlation, perhaps, but the causation could be reversed.

France, it varies from region to region. Brittany for example has a reputation of heavy drinkers, and having lived there for a while it's a bit deserved.

Also, students parties can be quite alcohol heavy, specially the start of the year parties. For example, in business and engineering schools, you have the WEI (Week End of Integration), basically, most of the students go in a remote location to get drunk for most of a Week-End (including during the 3 or 4 hours bus trip), there, you see some people completely passing out. After that, during the year, you see people getting drunk, but very rarely to the point of passing out.

However, the consumption of alcohol as a student can easily be continuous, for example, in my school of ~450 students, we had a bar managed by the students, with a license to serve alcohols like beer or cider, and some students ended-up border line alcoholics.

Drawing any kind of conclusion about a county's drinking habits based on purely anecdotal experience seems like a futile exercise. Also, I'm no expert, but I skimmed a few studies a couple of months ago, and they all suggested higher alcohol prices reduced consumption. Admittedly, I'm not sure if the studies covered what impact pricing has on individual consumption / binge drinking.

You can't ask parents in the US to be responsible for their kids. Parents' lawsuits led playgrounds to be engineered as sterile, boring, and lawsuit-free. We're also puritanical, as the biggest argument parents give against same sex marriage is having to explain it to their kids. And we're stupid, as the general view is that trusting young people or giving them responsibility would lead to them hurting themselves more. Parents even get in terrible for letting their kids just walk around. (The irony being that we let them drive at 16 and join the military at 18)

As an American who enjoys drinking, I find it shocking, too. Not that people do it, but the extent. I've had few experiences as miserable as being hungover. I've been really hungover twice in my life. After the first time, I said never again. After the second time, I said I really need to come up with a system to avoid this.

So I have a simple system I call Proof Points. I think I've shared it here once before. It's like calorie counting, except you track alcoholic intake as alcoholic proof (% content x 2) x oz of alcohol (yes, I'm an American). Do some trial and error and you should be able to find a range where you feel good drinking but don't end up the next morning not knowing where you are or even feeling noticeably lousy.

For me, the range is 300 to 400 proof points. Yeah, I can't always know how much alcohol I'm getting in a drink I order. But I'm able to ballpark it. And it's been effective for me. Even times when I drink a little too much, I'm sure it has stopped me from drinking way too much.

Take it with caveats up and down. Don't mistake it for BAC. I never drive if I'm drinking because, as I understand, most legal limits are now so low, you'll hit them well before you expect it.

I think this actually would help curb the drinking problem among US students and all the attendant ills that go along with it. Perhaps if it was offered as a nicely designed phone app. It could serve as a counter-pressure, more or less effective depending on the circumstances, to the peer pressure that the article identifies as a major driver of excess drinking.

> proof points

In Britain, the personal health lessons at school included guidance on the alcohol content of various drinks, and this is repeated on many bottles.

1 "unit" of alcohol is 10mL. It's close to the amount in a small beer, single measure (25mL) of spirit or a small glass of wine.

There are plenty of apps already.

I've got an easier solution in lieu of doing maths while drinking. When you feel warm and fuzzy, stop. That's typically only a few drinks in, and lasts for a couple hours. No issue with major dehydration.

> For me, the range is 300 to 400 proof points.

Am I doing the math wrong, or would that be less than two pints of beer at 5% ABV? Or does this not work with beer?

One regular drink is 100 of these proof points. A pint of strong beer is 2 drinks.

2 pints of medium beer is indeed a generally good amount to drink in one meal or before you pause for a while. Obviously how many minutes better drinks is a factor

"proof points" are usually called "drinks". 1 "drink" is 0.5oz of alcohol (1oz 100proof shot, 12oz can of American swill beer, or a half-pint of real beer, or one glass of wine).

I propose a measure I'll call Total Proof,

  T = (% content) x volume in oz

Which is related to Proof Points (P) by the following:

  P = 2T

Since T and P are proportional you can use Total Proof in the same way as Proof Points, just skip the multiplication by 2 and divide your target range in half.

My favorite 9% IPAs clock in at 288 Proof Points or 144 Total Proof for a pint, which makes sense because I usually follow that with a light lager that gets me to around 200 Total Proof or 400 Proof Points.

Dividing the ABV in half would result in a "normalized" scale that could tell you, for example, that you're exactly 72% drunk when you finish a pint of 9% because 9 x 0.5 x 16 is 72.

In college, I followed the simpler rule of a two liters of water before sleeping, prepped before going out, and it kept away hangovers pretty consistently; but I also drank with a paranoia of puking, so I never got that drunk

> After the first time, I said never again. After the second time, I said I really need to come up with a system to avoid this

That's not how it works. You're meant to keep saying 'never again' and then go out the next week and repeat. It's the British way.

As a 'binge drinker' of 20 years, I'll chime in: Almost all of the time, I drink at the pace of my drinking partners.

"Hey man, want another beer?" "Need another beer?" "You're drinking slow, catch up!" "Here's some shots"

On the rare occaisons that I drink on my own, I have 2-3 beers, I tend to enjoy them a little more. But in a group, I go at the group's pace.

Part of this is because it's very hard to enjoy the company of people who are much drunker than you. And they won't enjoy you if you are much drunker than them, so you have to all be on the same level.

When my friends get together, they all drink at their own pace. Some will have 8 drinks by the end of the night, some will have 2. This was the case in high school and college for me, as well.

My point is that anecdotes are not data and have no bearing on the truth of the original article.

It's a bit tautological, but the idea is that the very definition of "not on the same level" includes being annoying/boring to the other people around you.

It could be less about literally 1:1 matching, and more about attitude and enthusiasm matching.

The group reinforcement thing becomes a problem as people get into their 30s - often you’ll find that your heavy drinking friends start to drop off as they get more responsibilities or health concerns, and new ones come in. Eventually you look up and many of your friends are alcoholics.

Well then stop drinking with kids and go get some responsibilities. Be the one that drops off the heavy drinking train.

Yeah, but that's just its own vicious circle. You start hanging out with adults only through your kid's playdates, have more kids like the Joneses due to peer pressure etc.

Your drinking starts suffering as a result, and soon enough you won't even know what IPA is in this summer.

Hahahaha, already there buddy, already there. Can’t say I hate it though, it’s a different stage of life. Use it to learn and grow in different ways.

Also I’d take a Bud Heavy over an IPA any summer day.

There is nothing stopping drinking on playdates.

I remember being maybe 16 to 19 where yes, that was definitely the case. It was a matter of trying to be cool and able to handle my beer like everyone else, and blacking out was respected. However, I know I and most people around me grew up (not to sound negative on your situation, just the best wording I could come up with) and grew out of that. Now it's a matter of enjoying ourselves, and for some people that is a six pack in two hours and for others it is a beer lasting them all evening. Enjoying the drink and socializing has become more important than getting drunk, so someone being much more drunk than anyone else, at least in a negative sense, just doesn't happen.

This has to be a personal preference, right? I very much enjoy people at all levels of drunk, stoned, high, whatever.

Sure, but the average preference trends towards "on your level" in my experience.

Depends not just on personal preference, but on the drunk friend. My old boss, who has a very pleasant personality when wasted, and opened up about all sorts of insights into how work was going? Great. Brother-in-law who starts being a dick to his wife and kids? Not so much.

As long as they’re not killing the vibe and zapping the energy, they’re good.

> Part of this is because it's very hard to enjoy the company of people who are much drunker than you.

Fuckin ay. I can definitely get annoyed when I'm hanging with someone/people more drunk than I am to the point where I feel it sobers me up even more and compounds the problem!

I agree completely here with the keeping pace with each other. In college we drank like fish and were all usually on the same level. Now we’re old and have responsibilities and don’t drink anymore. Sure someone went overboard once in awhile, but we all turned out ok.

Damn dude, college was F.U.N.

It seems like you keep company with other binge drinkers. The decision of how much to drink doesn't happen at the group level during the drinking session, but at the group level when everyone decides to meet up knowing how the group dynamics often play out.

Do you regret how much you drink?

If I'm in a bar with friends or colleagues, I also tend to drink at the same rhythm as everybody, but once I had enough (it can vary depending if I've eaten and if I'm tired or not, but generally around 3 pints), I will generally to stop even if other people around me continues.

When I go to college football games I drive by the fraternities on my way to park. I'll see quite a few folks sitting on the front lawn seriously messed up. Usually a buddy or girlfriend standing or sitting with them keeping an eye on them.

I'm older so at the old people bars or parties, you just don't see folks drink them self into that state. I assume that sort of filters out to the sad drunk bars / folks at home as you age. I didn't get it when I was college, I don't get it now, that doesn't look fun.

They must think their classmates are drinking a lot, but it's pretty clear it's not nearly as much as they think, as most of their classmates seem capable of carrying on a conversation and standing up... meanwhile they are not.

> I'm older so at the old people bars or parties, you just don't see folks drink them self into that state. I assume that sort of filters out to the sad drunk bars / folks at home as you age.

Survivorship bias

Where they're at when they're out isn't fun, but part of the journey there is, and young people pushing their limits, particularly when they don't know them well doesn't work out well.

I went to an SEC school and did the whole fraternity thing during college, which involved drinking to excess way to much fueled by the fact that living in a fraternity house with 45 other guys who also wanted to drink that much as well as the rampant drug use.

It definitly had a negative impact on my health, grades, and focus on school work and im glad that post college ive cut back to 1 night of moderate drinking with friends on the weekend however the habits picked up in college still plague a good amount of my friends from college and Im worried about their longevity.

Its a particuarly hard issue to solve even moreso in a alcohol fueled envirionment like a frat where the freshmen joining look up to the sophmores,juniors and seniors who all have this same binge drinking mentality and the cycle continues.

Maybe the normalisation of alcohol at a younger age would help reduce it as it wouldnt seem like such a forbidden fruit.

Is that really your environment though? I can’t really imagine myself just falling into that culture by accident. I have to imagine you intended to seek it out, no? Not intending any accusations here.

Youre correct its definitly something I sought out and its something you can always drop out of too so I actively chose to stay involved as does everyone else in the organization

> Maybe the normalisation of alcohol at a younger age would help reduce it as it wouldnt seem like such a forbidden fruit.

Yeah. I don't believe that for a second. Much more interesting is how well you fare against peer pressure, how much of a social animal you aim to be, and whether your family was doing it.

If we could argue like that I would just argue the exact opposite based on my experience. The forbidden fruit we seem to have in common. The distinguishing factor here seems to be that you were in a toxic environment and I was busy pestering people on IRC.

There was a lot more porn available in that environment, so that's my burden to bear.

Let's at least stop pretending that if there were no limits on anything in the world, everything would be great and amazing.

Thats true, I thought I always heard binge drinking was a bigger issue in America v Europe where its not as strict. Never looked into the data though so I could be completely wrong

Corporations won't survive then.

Depends, my parents were always conservative.

Another friend was allowed to do whatever he wanted.

When it was a lot of fun, he stayed. Other times, he went home early.

I stayed till I was allowed too and tried to make it longer also.

It depends on personality also ofc, but when I was a student. It was new to me. Ofc, I stayed a hell of a lot longer than my friend the first year consistently.

I think that the normalization of alcohol at a younger (early college) age would help.

My experience in college is that it's not hard at all to find alcohol, but only in an environment where drinking is the main activity. It's much easier for me to go out and get drunk in a group than get a drink with a meal in the U.S. Having spent time with lower drinking ages, it's much easier to drink without getting drunk.

This is certainly a reflection on how I grew up (especially seeing how my parents treat alcohol), but I think the culture would be better if it was legal to drink earlier.

Anecdote but by 12 I had a favorite wine category and by 16 a favorite beer. Growing up, my dad drank every day with dinner, and the value of taste and enjoyment was what I learned out of wine & beer, along with the knowledge that too much starts to impair me. But this discovery was well before my driving days and within my own family, it wasn't something I had to covet, hide then binge on in secrecy, without social feedback.

I was not quite 18 when I first got really drunk… at a relative's wedding. I learned that impaired senses wasn't something I enjoyed and only got drunk one other time in my life. Also social feedback has kept that particular event alive in the family.

But my drinking style isn't condusive to getting drunk, as I savor my drinks really slowly, and for the most part, with meals.

This is a French perspective, though. I've had a very hard time conveying this idea to people here in the US because it seems ingrained in many people's minds that the only purpose of alcohol is to get drunk, so either you party or you abstain: no middle ground. Things are starting to change a bit, moderate drinking with the goal of savoring is gaining more acceptance and—most importantly—good drinks are appearing but it's a slow process.

Anecdotally, I grew up in the UK, where they are very strict regarding underage drinking (18 is the legal age). Worked in a small town in Austria in my early 20s and noticed that kids in the 15 - 18 year age range were generally allowed to drink (at an outdoor pub / concert venue) without too much hassle. They definitely did it more moderately than kids in the same age range in the UK.

Alcohol is normalized from a young age in the UK, yet it's abused by adults more heavily than here. I don't think that's a panacea.

The UK is interesting because there's a culture of drinking. So much of typical UK social life revolves around going "down pub". One place I worked we'd go to the pub for lunch every Friday and have 1-2 pints. I'm not sure why this is.

My anecdote: undergrad in Montreal, so the drinking age was 18. The first semester of first year involved quite a bit of heavy binge drinking, but by the time finals came around, I'd say that most of us (even the new drinkers) had acclimated and were drinking at a slightly more reasonable level. I have a hunch that being able to drink legally in highly social settings (the common room, clubs, bars, etc) is massively helpful in establishing healthy(er) drinking norms.

There isn't nearly as large of a frat/'Greek Life' culture in Canadian universities as in American ones, as far as I can tell. This is despite the fact that Canada and the US have very similar university systems, with students often crossing the country for school (unlike in Europe). I suspect that part of the reason for this frat disparity is that there's not so much appeal for frat parties when you can legally buy your own booze or go out to a bar/club without needing a fake ID.

Of course, alcoholism is a major problem in Canada as in the US.

There is definitely a heavy frat culture here in NL, where the drinking age is 18 (and used to be 16 until recently), so I don't think that reasoning holds.

Everybody should try not drinking for 1 month a year... I did it for about 2 years (non-stop). It's pretty hard and it really feels poorly accepted to the point that people didn't ask me you out because I didn't drink (meaning I was not fun, and tbh I can imagine it's less fun for drunk people with a sober person).

Anyway, It was quite an eye opener, also, the times I see this behaviour in series and movies also became a shock: "OMG I have an emotionally hard time! Grab the bottle, start slammin', look at me being all depressed but still cool lookin' like a Marlboro cowboy!". It's so deep in our culture.

I recently stopped drinking (it's been ~4 months) because I drank >1 bottle of wine every day for the last 3 to 4 years and I was worried I'll end up being an alcoholic or damage my liver. I'll be honest: alcohol is an amazing drug. I know that it's very harmful but no other drug gives me the enjoyment and calmness alcohol gives. Anyway, I stopped drinking now. When I hang out with my friends and they're drunk I usually try to get high so I'm not sober. I don't like weed as much as getting drunk so I can't get very intoxicated, just a little buzz. But yeah, the social aspect of intoxication is huge! Since weed is legal where I live (MA) I use it as a "social lubricant" which I suppose is a safe way to use drugs in general. My problem with alcohol was that I liked it too much and basically spent most of my time outside of work drunk since it was fun. I don't think I was addicted because when I stopped drinking cold turkey, I didn't experience anything bad...

I've seen 1 person really losing her family to alcohol, become completely apathetic and I almost lost another. It's strange that it so normal, imagine someone invented it today "Look, what I have, yeah messes with DNA (it's a registered CMR in some countries), but man it's a nice social lubricant."

That said, I enjoy alcohol too and would be offended by regulation (but I'm also "offended" by most drugs being regulated).

The Eleven Symptoms of Alcohol Use Disorder

-Alcohol is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.

-There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use.

-A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects.

-Craving, or a strong desire or urge to use alcohol.

-Recurrent alcohol use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home.

-Continued alcohol use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of alcohol.

-Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use.

-Recurrent alcohol use in situations in which it is physically hazardous.

-Alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol.

-Tolerance, as defined by either of the following: a) A need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve intoxication or desired effect b) A markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol. Withdrawal, as manifested by either of the following: a) The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to criteria A and B of the criteria set for alcohol withdrawal) b) Alcohol (or a closely related substance, such as a benzodiazepine) is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.

The presence of at least 2 of these symptoms indicates an alcohol use disorder (AUD). The severity of an AUD is graded mild, moderate, or severe:

Mild: The presence of 2 to 3 symptoms. Moderate: The presence of 4 to 5 symptoms. Severe: The presence of 6 or more symptoms. Conclusion: If You Meet 2 of the 11 Criteria for AUD, Reach Out and Ask for Help

Not sure if this comment was intended for a larger audience, or just me? I mean as my original comment suggests, I haven't drunk any alcohol last ~4 months, and even before that I don't think I had any of these symptoms. Anyway, thanks for the heads up!

Studies like this should immediately make one remember something about psychology. The replication crisis has devastated any credibility in psychology. And social psychology, as this study is part of, is the worst hit. The replication rate for social psychology studies is currently hovering around 25% [1]. And unlike psychology studies, that result can and has been replicated. What that means is that if you see any social psychology study - you would be much more accurately informed if you assumed that what it 'discovered' was false.

So back to this study. Let's imagine some alternative hypothesis. People tend to overestimate the representativeness of their own personal experience. People extrapolate their own personal experience, which in turn is going to be driven by their own behaviors/views/etc, to much wider segments of the population than they actually apply to. If somebody engages in substantial drinking, they're going to overestimate the normality of that behavior. And similar for those that engage in minimal drinking. And all of this is even more true when you're talking about young college aged kids.

This hypothesis also fully explains otherwise inexplicable 'discoveries' of this study. For instance the study found no connection between the drinking habits of the dorms people lived in and their own independent usage. That contradicts their hypothesis but it was, of course, simply hand-waved away. But the real problem with this hypothesis is that it doesn't lead to new research, doesn't sound exciting, and likely would be difficult to publish. Publication generally entails novelty, and I'm certain this effect has been extensively studied and reported upon elsewhere. So instead we get clickbait under the guise of science.

[1] - https://replicationindex.com/2018/12/28/socpsytb-ego-depleti...

This makes sense to me from my experience. When I was around 18 a lot of people told stories of all the drinking (and sex) they did. I felt quite some pressure to drink more because of that.

Later I found out that a lot of these stories were vastly exaggerated. It's pretty sad that people feel the need to brag about destructive behavior like doing but that's the way it is.

I can confirm these people :) Most of interesting things in my life happened when I was drunk. People are boring without drugs...

Scientific confirmation of well-known folk wisdom. (Not a bad thing.) I remember being in college and hearing "I'll go shot for shot" and "I can drink you under the table", etc. Outdrinking the other person was a badge of... adulthood? Maybe? I don't know. I never got it myself. I tried drinking to excess and the first lesson I learned was my limits, best summarized by the old adage "one tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor". The experience was unpleasant enough to put me off consuming more than two drinks a night.

Do Children in France Have a Healthier Relationship With Alcohol?

https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/04/28/do-children-in-fra...

I did the fraternity thing in college as others have mentioned.. I am an extremely moderate drinker and have been ever since I finished college. Sometimes as little as 1 drink a month, and in periods where I am actively working towards a sports/fitness goal I might go months without drinking any alcohol. I definitely drank to excess in college but never to a huge degree or constantly. Even in a fraternity that is pretty wild there are a spectrum of students. I finished school with a 3.7 GPA, though I would say the fraternity impacted my grades, they might have been even higher. But almost any social activity would have had an effect. At my school the social scene was pretty dead outside of greek life.

- Fraternities & sororities generally have risk management plans/training these days. I am not sure I think they are more dangerous/less responsible than underground/unorganized social situations on a college campus. Fraternity parties often have alumni supervision. Even 20 years ago when I was in school those parties were registered an inspected. House parties, off campus parties, hidden dorm parties were far riskier.

- The European model of letting people drink younger often gets brought up in these discussions. The only problem I have with that is Europeans on average drink far more alcohol than Americans throughout adulthood. I am not sure I believe the kids are more responsible in Europe either when you consider things like Alcoholic drinks marketed to high school students that would never fly here.

- The massive fraternity parties are getting shut down these days on campuses. My alma mater has banned all drinking on campus and at fraternities/sororities/social clubs on and off campus, even for members/alumni who are 21. The weird thing here is they put a loophole in for sports teams... athletes who are 21 and alumni can drink at sports team events.. ridiculous.

- Some of the largest national social fraternities & sororities are requiring all chapters to ban alcohol among members now

Then once you turn 21, drinking a lot very quickly becomes less cool and more sad

Our BS drinking laws artificially elevate alcohol's badass status among the under 21 crowd. Rolling back the drinking age to the modern world standard of 16 would drastically reduce student drinking by equating it with kid behavior. Nobody's interested in doing highschool shit in college.

> Rolling back the drinking age to the modern world standard of 16 would drastically reduce student drinking by equating it with kid behavior. Nobody's interested in doing highschool shit in college.

Wouldn't this just move student drinking from college to highschool, not reduce overall student drinking? I don't think it's a good idea to having the driving and drinking age be the same. I'm sure lots of parents of teenagers would be very upset if their children could legally drink.

I come from latin america and my family let me drink at family events under supervision at 16. Around 17-18 I went out to parties and never came back home super wasted. Nowadays I barely drink.

Seems to me if you treat your kid with respect and guide them they can be responsible adults.

Also mind you that the legal smoking age in the US is 18 and pretty much everyone agrees that it is much worse than drinking.

I think the differences between Latin America drinking cultures and Untied States is much bigger than just the legal drinking age. Changing that one variable won't make a big impact IMO.

The best thing that could ever happen to the cigarette business would be increasing the legal smoking age to 21. That puts them in the 'illicit cool things adults do' category. Dropping the age lower to 16 would put it in the realm of childish things.

There's no shortage of data to prove that increasing the driving age to 21 would save a massive amount of lives, although that would reduce car sales. Car wrecks are the leading cause of death for teenagers. Lowering the drinking age would prevent alcoholism and increasing the driving age would save lives but our laws aren't based on data or science.

New Zealand changed the drinking age from 20 to 18 many years ago.

You could look at papers about that to understand what changed.

Although anecdotally New Zealanders drink wayyyy more than Americans (so maybe hard to compare).

More than rural Americans or urban Americans? I'd assume that rural people everywhere drink more because there is less else to do, at least before the modern era of electronic entertainment

NZers drink 8.8 litres per person aged over 15 years.

The state with the highest consumption in 2016 was New Hampshire, with a total alcohol consumed per capita: 4.76 gallons (18 litres).

Wow.

Comes from the following writeup for NZers:

From the domestic figures released by Statistics New Zealand, in the year 2017 [7]:

476 million litres of alcoholic drinks were available for domestic consumption: 289 million litres of beer 111 million litres of wine 77 million litres of spirits and spirit-based drinks

By volume, we drink almost three-times as much beer than wine. However, by alcohol content or standard drinks, 12.6 million litres of pure alcohol comes from beer, 11.5 million litres from wine, and 10 million litres from spirits. This totals 34.2 million litres of pure alcohol per year, or 8.8 litres per person aged over 15 years. On average, this means that every New Zealander drinks almost 2 standard drinks per day. However, in reality, we know that rather than New Zealanders drinking small amounts daily, around half of all alcohol in New Zealand is consumed in heavy drinking sessions.

I'm a 23 y/o Kiwi and have recently been self reflecting about my drinking habbits and what I want to make from my life. I drink heavily 2 or 3 nights a week and the problem i have with it is it totally aborbs my weekends. I end up spending my Saturday/Sunday days in bed hungover. The thing I find difficult about taking breaks from drinking is I live with 5 of my best friends and one of them wanting to drink usually convinces the rest of the household. Adding to the fact that there is always MDMA and other drugs floating around makes this harder on my body.

I'm in my thirties and cut down on alcohol.

I didn't drink alone or often, just 2-3 nights a month and most of them it was only 2-3 beer, but sometimes it was quite much.

Anyway, I'm dieting right now and had the impression that replacing alcohol with coke-zero at parties would cut down a few hundreds of kcals a month.

As a lifelong teetotaler, one thing I've consistently found strange is how much other people seem concerned by me not drinking at social events. This seems consistent with the conclusions of the study.

Some people want to make sure that I'm "having fun". Apparently "having fun" is a euphemism for drinking. No matter how many times I tell them that yes, I am enjoying myself, this doesn't satisfy some people.

Some people seem concerned that because everyone else is drinking, if someone does something stupid then I'll remember it. I don't know what to say about this other than that I don't particularly care if you do something stupid as long as it's not dangerous.

And then there are the people who believe that my not drinking means that I judge those who do. I don't care if you drink any more than if you put ketchup on your fries. Sure, if you drank a gallon of ketchup I'd be concerned, but most people don't, so I'm not concerned.

There are those who'll comment on me as if I'm some sort of oddity. Well, I guess I am, and this is never said as a bad thing in my experience, so I'll take it.

Admittedly, I'm old enough that most people don't care, but I'm still surprised by those who do.

From my experience people are not concerned about me not drinking, but rather they’re extremely surprised that such a thing exists and want to know the reason why.

The answer “because I enjoy myself without it and I don’t want to get drunk” only gets accepted about 50% of the time. The other 50% people start speculating odd reasons as to why I’m not drinking :)

Yes, I'm often asked about why too. I used to be bothered by this because (like you) I'd find that people often don't accept my answers. Right now I don't give a clear answer (e.g. Q: "Why don't you drink?" A: "Because I don't want to.") because many people who ask don't seem interested in my reasons beyond using the reasons as an opener for a sales pitch about drinking. E.g., if I say that I don't like the taste, they'll insist that I haven't tried the right drink yet, sometimes going as far as to recommend a particular drink. If someone said they didn't like mayonnaise it would be particularly weird for someone else to insist that they try a particular type of mayonnaise, but the same logic apparently doesn't apply for drinking.

There's also the problem that many drinkers believe non-drinkers judge them, and I feel that if I gave some of my reasons, the drinkers would feel judged.

If people are asking you if you're having fun its because you're showing you're not. Grab a sprite and say it's a G&T and enjoy yourself.

I've had the same experience. I really think some people feel awkward if there is someone not drinking like it's some sort of tacit disapproval of their actions.

> its because you're showing you're not. Grab a sprite and say it's a G&T and enjoy yourself.

So the way to look like I'm enjoying myself is to fake drinking? At first I thought you might be suggesting that I look depressed or whatnot, but now I'm not certain. I will say that no, I don't think I look down.

I recently had experiences with a regular social group that demonstrated this. It's a group that drinks regularly except for two people who don't. One always feels like he fits in fine, while the other's presence always stuck out as not fitting in. I had to put my finger on why to tell him, after a few events where I found myself not desiring his presence and deliberately hadn't invited him.

I'd peg what's missing as vulnerability. Alcohol lowers one's social filters and inhibitions, of course. All the rest of a drinking group is participating in that shared experience, of letting inner thoughts and feelings be more exposed. The risk of saying or doing something one might later regret is part of the thrill. "Having fun" is the euphemism for allowing others to see that state in you.

Some people can naturally achieve that vulnerable "punch-drunk" state without alcohol. Some don't. A person who doesn't inhibits that whole vibe for everyone. You're not a peer, you're a monitor. Doesn't matter if you say you don't care -- the reality is that you will resist getting drawn in to whatever excesses are happening, and everyone will perceive that resistance and themselves adjust for it. Your presence of not mutually participating in the vulnerability drags down the vibe for everyone. It's not exactly the alcohol, it's the state of mind, but of course there is a correlation.

Of course this depends a lot on the nature of the social group. A college fraternity will just plow ahead and ignore that resistance. A country club probably has everyone acting restrained enough so as not to clash with one more reluctant personality. But there are those in-between groups, with social barriers high enough to exist but low enough to be pierced by alcohol, and the presence of a nondrinker acts against that piercing that the participants seek.

Thanks, I think a lack of vulnerability is a useful perspective to understand some of what I've experienced. Typically the people who seem concerned that I'm not drinking don't know me well.

Additionally, I want to emphasize that it's important to not write off a non-drinking friend simply because they don't seem to be opening up in the way you want. I find at least some drinkers seem to write me off in all social situations based only on those that involve drinking. If that's not the way to get to know someone, try another way. Also, if it really is about opening up and not drinking, tell that to your non-drinking friend!

I don't want to be "vulnerable". That seems like an absurd state of affairs. I cannot be at risk of divulging passwords or knowledge that must remain confidential.

There's no way that parent drinking behavior isn't a strong indicator too.

I've seen that one go both ways, it would be great to have more data. Anecdotal, but a larger number of people than I expected have told me they don't drink - or set extremely low limits for themselves - as a result of parental behavior which led to a disgust response.

As someone who grew up in nation where alcohol was basically banned, and into a family that never touched alcohol, I can say that parents drinking habit is strongly inversely correlated with some people’s drinking habits :).

I bonded with an ex Mormon over a whole bottle of scotch over this once.

Oh my, don't show me that. My son is going to college next year. I don't believe that the situation with alcohol is so awful. I'm sure such habits are taken from his surrounding while growing up.

Genetic predisposition? that's opening up a can of worms.

"Begorah is it cos I am irish" - Adopts stereotypical fighting drunkard pose.

First law of Behaviour Genetics:

All human behavioural traits are heritable.

https://teammccallum.wordpress.com/3-laws-of-behaviour-genet...

And then further down the page:

> ”All traits are heritable” is a bit of an exaggeration, but not by much.

So I guess it's not a law after all.

First law of Behaviour Genetics:

All human behavioural traits are heritable.

(As noted elsewhere, almost all.)

I was watching an Aydin Paladin video, and IIRC, she mentioned one study which found that genetic factors explained 41% of variation in infidelity and 38% variation in number of sexual partners.

https://youtu.be/KET2JncpJ7o?t=1028

Cherkas, L. F., Oelsner, E. C., Mak, Y. T., Valdes, A., & Spector, T. D. (2004). Genetic influences on female infidelity and number of sexual partners in humans: a linkage and association study of the role of the vasopressin receptor gene (AVPR1A). Twin Research and Human Genetics, 7(6), 649-658.

Another citation from that video:

Garver-Apgar, C. E., Gangestad, S. W., Thornhill, R., Miller, R. D., & Olp, J. J. (2006). Major histocompatibility complex alleles, sexual responsivity, and unfaithfulness in romantic couples. Psychological Science, 17(10), 830-835.

So much for the ideology of the Blank Slate. Atheism of the 2000's got this much right: Human beings are conscious and sentient, which is wonderful, but we are also animals subject to biology. That's just messy reality, and we'd best deal with it.

Did they control for regional cultural attitudes towards sex?

For example, these genetic factors could correlate with people whose hereditary upbringing was in a more promiscuous culture, but not necessarily causing it.

Edit: Your first citation says they didn't find a link between infidelity and genetics, but did with environment.

Did they control for regional cultural attitudes towards sex?

It was a twin study entirely within the UK.

Edit: Your first citation says they didn't find a link between infidelity and genetics, but did with environment.

I don't think that's correct. I think you are willfully reading what you want, and your paraphrase leaves out a key detail.

Our findings demonstrate that infidelity and number of sexual partners are both under moderate genetic influence (41% and 38% heritable, respectively) and the genetic correlation between these two traits is strong (47%). Conversely, attitudes towards infidelity are driven by shared and unique environmental, but not genetic, influences.

The study found that environmental factors shape attitude towards infidelity, but "infidelity and number of sexual partners are both under moderate genetic influence."

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/39d8/8c23b2535946c1a6be7448...

It may not be politically correct, but it's true. Genetic factors have a huge influence in regards to addiction, metabolism, diseases, etc.

For alcohol use, huge in comparison to peer influence, though?

If both are statistically significant factors, I see nothing wrong with talking about both.

Genetics can impact your personality but that doesn’t mean you don’t have will power. If all behavior is genetic then eugenics should be morally justifiable since you can improve humanity by cleaning up the gene pool.

Will power is inheritable.

You control your willpower.

You control the things you do. Willpower is a trait like IQ or being tall.

Which is exactly what I said. Genetics determine how much willpower you have, then you control what you do with it.

There's a definite genetic component to addiction and alcoholism. Anecdotally, people seem increasingly aware of this - several friends of mine who have alcoholics in their family abstain from drinking entirely knowing they're predisposed to developing a problem.

>"Begorah is it cos I am irish" - Adopts stereotypical fighting drunkard pose.

"Connor, chill out. You've had 26 beers."

"You're damn right I have and I'm gonna have six more"

My wife and I cannot drink to keep pace. She's done after 1/4th of a drink. I'm done after 2. The one time she let her coworkers pressure her to finish a drink, I had to stay up with her in the bathroom.

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