If I speak bad English (I am Russian), everybody is still happy, the worst thing can happen is I’ll get corrected, and in 99.9% of cases it’s not even that.
If I speak bad French with a French person... may God have mercy upon my soul. Especially if I forgot to say bonjour/bonsoir first (abomination! burn the heretic!)
An anecdote from a trip to Quebec city. My wife and I walked up to a hostess to inquire about getting a table for dinner. We greeted her in French. As soon as we started to ask about a table, she stopped us and said, "No no no no. This will be in English."
It's only two anecdotes. I may have simply run into rude people. But, they made me not care to ever speak French.
My daughter is taking Spanish in school right now. I'm learning a little as well. We have a large population of people around us from different Spanish speaking countries. They seem to be very tolerant of mistakes. I'm very much looking forward to learning more of their language.
However, any foreigner trying to speak Russian, no matter how broken or incorrect, will meet nothing but praise and encouragement from other Russians.
(Everyone else was kind.)
I took immersive classes, speaking 6 hours / day, 90 minutes spent on pronunciation drills. The only downside is my accent got better faster than my vocab, confusing lots of people with whom I interacted.
I was under the impression (having never been to Quebec) that she was in fact breaking the law by doing this.
From the Charter of the French language: "Consumers of goods and services have a right to be informed and served in French." http://www.legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-11#se:5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_the_French_Language
I suppose the person requesting service could be more forceful about insisting on being served in French, but does someone have to go through a second round of insisting/refusing before service has been denied? And what words count as insisting (id that is required), what words count as refusal? "No, no, no, this will be in English" seems very close to a refusal to me.
I wouldn't be surprised if this has been formally litigated in Canada, it'd be interesting to know.
Native Québecois here. That's most definitely very odd.
The typical scenario is someone not fluent in French attempts to speak it, and the other person switches to English as a courtesy, not as a slight against you; many people forget or don't know that most Québecois in major cities are bilingual.
Simply mentioning that you would like to continue in French so that you can practice will elicit gratitude and wide smiles - we really, really, really like it when people speak French, no matter the quality, and most will happily help you learn a few extra words or expressions.
Just stick to your guns of speaking in French and let people know you want to practice, and you'll do great!
And congratulations on the move! It's a wonderful city. So wonderful that I'm moving back there in a month after being in the Toronto region for almost 10 years.
Why did you think those people were rude, instead of, say, trying to be helpful?
French is difficult to understand when spoken badly, even for natives (maybe esp. for natives). We don't understand what people are trying to say -- really. We don't try to be condescending: we truly do. not. understand. I get that foreigners / tourists may not believe it, but it is true.
You could call that helpful if you're optimizing for fastest transaction. For tourists who might have spent years in school learning the French language, and many recent weeks on Duolingo refreshing before the trip, and who are optimizing for a richer local experience, it's thoughtless and rude. Both viewpoints are rational.
I now have some lousy Portuguese, so we'll see if the Portuguese people are more gregarious with their language or if they ask me to fall back to French.
Also I doubt that French is objectively harder to understand when spoken poorly than most languages. Especially when you consider tonal languages like Vietnamese and Mandarin.
Basically if the listener believes that it is difficult, it will be. Additionally, the harder the listener tries to engage with and understand the non-native speaker, the easier it becomes.
French could be unique among languages, but my strong suspicion is that if what you describe is true for most French speakers, it's mostly due to a widespread cultural perception that non-native French speakers are hard to understand rather than objective difficulty.
There is a professor at Georgia State University who's primary research focus is on this topic if you're interested in reading more.
Interesting and intriguing! Thanks!
I have a few years of high school and college French fortified by a couple months spent living in Lyon with a French family. Other than an hour between CDG and the TGV station, I'd never been to Paris until 2016, which was long after my French studies.
That 2016 trip was disappointing. I'd mentally rehearse the restaurant order while looking at the menu, or check Google Translate for the exact words describing the thing I needed from the store, and I had the same experience as you: a strong feeling I was exceedingly boring to the other person, and please let's switch to the easy path to get this drudgery over with. Speaking French was a big attraction to why I was looking forward to going to France. It was a letdown.
But three years later, in 2019, I found myself back in Paris, and this time I had several successful non-phatic discussions with natives that I'd characterize as enjoyable in any language. What changed?
Strangely enough, the change was learning Mandarin, which I started doing last year. Aside from my being an adult, Mandarin is hard for anyone to learn as a second language, so I never expected to reach conversational fluency in it. And my resulting attitude every time I'm talking to a native Mandarin speaker is "well, fuck it, I'm never going to be good at this, but I have to start somewhere, so let's just try to assemble what I'm thinking out of the 500 words I know, and see what happens." It's a totally different attitude from my well-studied, well-schooled, well-read, but not well-practiced French brain. And while I still concede I'll never be fluent in Mandarin, I'm saying an awful lot more to Mandarin speakers than I would have a single year into my French studies.
This lack of inhibition led into a better experience in France. I didn't bother trying to construct full, stammering sentences in restaurants. I just said the numbers and nouns and gave one-word answers to whatever the server asked -- insisting on switching to English would have actually prolonged our time together. But in circumstances where conversation would have helped pass the time -- cab ride where the driver looks like he's wondering something about us, or standing in line where all of us were clearly confused by the same situation, etc. -- I just went for it, with the same fuck-it attitude, and it worked out. We had our short, meaningful, optional conversations that scratched the "I spoke real French in real France" itch.
In short, yes, unfortunately, the problem really is you (and me). But it's fixable. Stop thinking "I'm about to speak French." Just let it happen.
Your two anecdotes do seem rude, however I would personally have asked the same thing, but in a different way, like "We could continue in English if you want" with probably a slight incentive in my tone to actually switch to English (sorry if I also appear a bit rude). Or Maybe I will just reply to your every question in English.
A native English speaker is blessed, English has become the de facto lingua franca of the World which means learning a foreign language generally is a luxury. For everybody else, it's more of a necessity, and you tend to be exposed to English in your everyday life, at least to some degree (films, tv shows, technical documentation, meetings if you work within an international team), so chances are the person you are talking to is actually more fluent in English that you are in French (and it's also valid for any other language).
It also means it's somewhat harder to actually learn a foreign language as a native English. As a personal experience, one of my colleagues is American, but wants to settle in France, so he is trying to learn French, and sometimes, we actually start speaking in French, but after one or two minutes, we switch to English. I just see my colleague struggling and I know the conversation would be easier in English. I feel a little guilty about it.
Lastly, but a bit out of topic, there might be some small cultural differences. Just to illustrate, In an American restaurant, the waiter will ask you if everything is ok at least once or twice during the course of the meal, in a French restaurant, he will take your order and leave you alone until you finish eating your dish (and then ask you if you want a desert, a coffee or the bill).
Moving to France!
You've been to American restaurants and only been interrupted once or twice by waiters? You were quite blessed then. Ordinarily, we expect conversations to be interrupted 5-6 times per meal. (I'm only slightly exaggerating.) Here's a true story illustrating how ridiculous it gets. I proposed to my wife in our favorite restaurant. I chose purposefully an early dinner time so we would have the restaurant to ourselves. As I began to kneel and pull the engagement ring out of my pocket, a busboy stepped between my wife and I to refill our water glasses. It was a bit awkward for about 20 seconds or so.
Oddly, my experience has been the opposite. Most of the places I have gone to in Paris spoke very little to no English but were trying to be very helpful anyway and I HAD to use my broken French.
However, I could tell that we didn't really hit the "standard" tourist shops (stayed just off École Militaire).
I will say that most English speakers tend to be VERY tolerant of mistakes. I think it's a combination of:
1) There is no single "native" English.
Think about how different people from different socioeconomic classes in the US, Canada, UK, India, etc. sound. And they are all native English speakers!
2) English is really agglomerative and absorbs neologisms readily.
Think about how quickly typhoon and tycoon entered the language, for example. Can you picture that kind of evolution for any other language?
These are two very different things. In my years of experience, the most likely outcome of speaking imperfect French is just that the French person switches to speaking perfect English.
Not saying hello+good morning is a social sanitation faux pas viewed akin to not washing your hands after using the toilet.
I'm not going to defend the latter, because it's all very formulaic, but I lived in France for years without proficiency and never had a poor encounter because of my unskilled French.
French speakers from France make mistakes all the time and their pronunciation is very far from perfect. (As long as I can understand them, I don't care.) That being said, someone from France's English is more than likely many times better than my French.
If they're from Canada, maybe [1]. If they're from France, a decent chunk of Wallonie (French-speaking Belgium) or Romandie (French-speaking Switzerland), I doubt it. France has one of the lowest rates of English proficiency among the other developed countries in Western Europe and I know that first hand.
[1] And the average French person wouldn't consider what the Quebecois speak as French :p
Define sensitive?
When my wife (who is Czech) or my colleague (who is Venezuelan) make French errors, I correct them the same way I correct my children: not because it is annoying me (I don't speak Czech and my Spanish is terrible!) but because I want to help them.
And yes, if someone speaks bad French, I'll switch to English but that's not out of disrespect, it's because it's more efficient/easy, if you prefer that the discussion stays in French to practice your French, just say so..
It is rolling one's eyes and immediate passive aggressive remarks that I hate, and they are quite common...
It might be efficient, but it will definitely hurt the self-esteem of the other person. Been there. I speak 5 languages fluently and tried to learn Italian. Went to Florence and every time I tried to speak Italian, people would answer in English. I know they're doing it because they're used to tourism and it's more efficient - yet at the same time it made me doubt so much about my language learning skills that I probably won't try it again for a while.
Conversely, I can see why some Europeans might be more passionate about correct grammar and pronunciation. As youth begin to speak in a hybrid of English and their native language, it begins to erodes their cultural identity. It makes sense if they're passionate about their countries heritage, which many French people are, to try and resist the Anglicising of a part of that.
Americans butchered the English language anyway so you couldn't do much worse ;)
And yes, we of the US butchered English. I have no qualm with that statement. We also can't get metric right. At least we drive on the proper side of the road though. ;-)
But I kind of disagree with your “God have mercy on my soul” statement. French people are extremely proud (and being a French native, rightly so!). There is nothing they appreciate more than the world looking at them. When the international press makes their cover on France, it usually gets reported with screenshots in French media, something I have not seen in any other large country. For the same reason, most French people tend to feel flattered when someone makes an effort to speak their language. Though there are enough ancient and illogical grammatical rules to ensure a non native always gets spotted after only a few sentences.
Holy hell do they have a thick accent. I've only encountered an accent that thick in very rural US (think deep South or Appalachia).
It made learning French as fun & enjoyable as learning Spanish in Central & South America.
Now for German, you can speak any of the awful dialects natively and it's fine. But never, never dare Hochdeutsch with with a _foreign_ accent as people will make a point of not understanding you! Because dropping a umlaut suddenly makes an entire sentence impossible to parse!
Well, for Germany it's not about the language, it's about the fact that making any mistake that gives away that German is not your native language suddenly makes you a stupid immigrant of lower education in the eyes of the most of the natives.
For example, just last week, I asked a French speaking couple I know to help me pronounce “de rien”. When I say it, I sound like I dun just gots off the potato patch. They quite literally tag teamed me, one started working on drills to help me roll the ‘r’. Another started making a list of other similar words (so that I could sound stupid across a wider range of vocabulary).
It was quite amazing. But, with the exact same people, if I just speak French without prefacing it with a request for help, they switch to English instantly.
Do you mean "de rien"? (As in "no problem", literally "it was nothing")
I agree r's are definitely the hardest thing to pronounce in french (as an english speaker at least). I think "rire" is the hardest word in the french language
Don’t even get me started on rire. That’s another word that makes me sound significantly dumber than I hope I am!! :)
Broken English is everywhere, people got used to it. This is not the case for other, less pervasive languages.
The fact that I speak other languages helps in that I am better prepared for likely sorts of mistakes, but even so.