First they came for plastic bags. Then they came for straws. Coffee cups are next.
Straws are a hot button topic in disabled circles.
Straws are a hot button topic in disabled circles.
There's no reason why the ban can't be put in place there are alternative methods that can be put in place that will meet needs.
It works perfectly and even holds up longer than a paper straw. And not only it is biodegradable, it is also edible.
It could also be prevented by coating it in a wax, like Carnauba wax, which will hold stable at up to 80°C and is chemically friendly to water, so McDonalds and friends would only have to lower the temperature of their coffee a bit.
20 yrs from now, I can see an greenwashing-ad of artisan/craft macaroni where ecological considerates up-cycle used macaroni-straws exactly this way. They will have counter-cultural names (unless labeling upcycled garbage for what it is becomes counter cultural). There will be media enchantment all the way (until bankruptcy), everybody yearns for a solution to the threat that too much noodles in the ocean pose to fish.
From memory, it's considered yet another imposition on someone who already has enough struggles to deal with. They might forget, etc. I can't remember what the argument is against straws being kept under the counter and only given on request.
- shopping bags - coffee cup - water bottle - straws
Who wants to carry all this garbage? Nobody. Give us all a break.
Genuine question, because everyone's life is different, is it really that big a deal?
I bring shopping bags with me when I go grocery shopping. They're more comfortable to carry than the disposable plastic ones. Often they just lie in the boot of the car where they don't take up much space. The backpack I bring to work is big enough to fit the handful of things I might buy on the way home.
I have a resuable coffee cup and water bottle on my desk at work, and I much prefer them to the disposable versions. Occasionally I buy a bottle of water or a coffee in a disposable cup, but whatever, I've still massively reduced the waste I produce from these things. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
In order to follow the movement I would need to carry a backpack of some sort, all the time and all places, or be ready to pay up. I would need to use probably more plastic bags than today, just to prevent spills and contamination from the coffee cups and straws. Gone would be freedom to change plans, leave home with no bags to carry, everything would become pre-planned. All of that for what outcome? Efforts of western countries focusing on cups and straws are a charade with no measurable impact; meanwhile some countries in Asia dump their waste into oceans by tons each minute. Our effort and resources would be better spent helping those countries improve faster, not trying to fix our 0.000001 % share. Most bang for the buck it’s called.
The level of your arrogance is astonishing. There is this group of people called the old people. Not disabled, just old with degraded fine motorics, weaker grip, shaky hands and a quivering jaw. Give them a metal or bamboo straw and they'll chew their teeth out. Remove plastic straws completely or make them at a hefty fee and you just made their life another bit harder.
> The whole system shouldn't change to accommodate edge cases that can be accommodated in another acceptable way.
I agree with you there. We already have waste collection and recycling programs, so there is no need to change the system by inventing pfand system for cups or banning plastics in some shapes and forms.
Once again, while you were focusing on straws worth of grams of plastic, others dumped tons of plastic into the wild. You are completely missing the point of the bigger picture and no effort on your side will make measurable impact, not to nature anyway.
Reusable and bendable typically makes the straw hard to clean.
There are probably other issues. I'm not personally up in arms about it, but then I have yet to be directly impacted.
I'm not well versed on the straws issues. But let's talk about the California bag ban for a minute.
I've lived without a car for over a decade. I also have a compromised immune system. Disposable plastic bags are cleaner than reusable shopping bags.
I almost never buy trash bags. I use my shopping bags as trash bags.
I don't feel guilty about needing and wanting plastic shopping bags for convenience and germ control.
The bag ban presumes you can just stick your stuff in your shopping cart, take it out to the trunk of your car and drive it home. It is a burden for poor people, pedestrians and folks using public transit. There is no limit on rich people paying the extra 10 cents per bag to have all the bags they want.
It's based on an assumption that you have a car and money and will not give up your car. It actively punishes serious environmental activists actually willing to live without a car.
Getting more people to walk would do more good, imo.
I re-use paper grocery bags as bags for recycling and compost. We get plenty of plastic bags to use for the trash bin from random other sources, but if we ever ran out, they cost a few cents each if you buy a box.
Growing up in Mexico, we carried groceries home (a mile away and over a hill) from the market in baskets or sometimes backpacks, which was quite a bit less convenient than paper bags from a grocery store. I’m not sure why we didn’t use canvas tote bags.
But I'm extremely frustrated with the fact that no one seems to genuinely be interested in understanding anything I say on such topics. Even the best people here often come across as only asking so as to more effectively rebut my points, not to have their mind broadened or their understanding of the issues deepened.
For someone like me, that's basically life threatening. And the burden is always on me to prove something, to be diplomatic and respectful, etc.
I'm aware it's complicated by my story. I'm aware people find my story hard to believe.
But if you will excuse me, I think it's time for me to walk away from this thread.
It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument, but since all of your individual points have been rebutted, it seems that this thing has been unspoken.
It occurs to me that perhaps it isn't your argument that is falling on deaf ears. It's your feeling. Often times, when making an argument, it is hard to separate the two. If only I felt like you, then I would understand immediately. It's a thing that is hard, if not impossible, to put into words and so try as you might, it seems like nobody is able to understand. Indeed it seems like nobody wants to understand.
I suppose if I try to use my imagination, I can imagine a scenario where I would feel the way you seem to feel. Of course, this is not likely to be the same feeling that you actually have. I hope you will forgive me in that I am probably unable to achieve that. In trying, though, I hope it will provide you the sense that I'm not against you and that even if I disagree with you, I care about your feelings.
There have been many times when I have worked hard to get a system that works for me. Sometimes it's been just at the edge of my ability to achieve that system. I'm not good at everything in the world, unfortunately. In fact, I'm extremely bad at some things and even if I try as hard as I can, I can't maintain a level that would be normal for another person. You could say I am disabled in that sense... but it's not a disability that you can see. Nor is it a disability that you can write down on an application for aide. Honestly, I'm just bad at it. Other people can't understand why and so rarely, if ever, make any allowances for me.
In that environment, I get my system going that allows me to just barely pass the level that is tolerated in society and I have pushed myself to the absolute limit to achieve that system. But then... society changes and they ask me to change my system. I want to break down in shame and cry out, "I *can't do it!", but I know that nobody will understand because it is a small thing for them. I don't know what to do because it is a burden I feel that I can't bear and yet nobody will help me.
If you are feeling that kind of thing, then perhaps I can understand. All I can do is to pass on my support. Probably you'll be surprised that a lot of people feel this way about certain things, but owing to the aforementioned shame, they are reluctant to talk about it (or often even admit it to themselves).
Even if I got this totally wrong, I hope it will make you feel better that somebody tried to understand.
I have a diagnosis of atypical cystic fibrosis. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume you do not. Germ control is a really, really big thing in my life.
It is very possible that we are all missing something integral to your overall argument
If you will read my comments more closely, you might realize that I'm usually not making an argument. It's other people who turn it into an argument.
My first comment was merely an observation, not an argument. The fact that most people here are framing it as an argument to be won is precisely the problem.
It is possible to talk to someone with no goal of proving a particular point. It's called conversation. When done right, it can add information to the system that improves decision making.
But that can't happen as long as the entire fucking world sees a different experience and different point of view as a threat to their precious status quo that must be shot down before it has any hope of taking root.
And now I invite you to try to understand my feelings. If you want it not to be "the whole fucking world" to shoot someone down simply because they have a different experience and different point of view, it's really got to start somewhere. You might keep in mind that my initial interaction in the conversation was an offer to try to understand your point of view.
When they introduced the ban on plastic bags in my country, it was more a ban on supermarkets selling them alongside your normal purchase, but you still can buy a stack of a few hundred in speciality shops, and just use that.
And if you forget to bring your own you can always buy the pristine reusable ones at a small cost.
At least here thats how a lot of people protested the ban for a few years - just brought they’re own plastic bags.
Maybe they are banned outright? No way to “smuggle in” a stack or something?
Most of the replies here are genuinely not interested in understanding the reasons this stuff is a hot button topic in disabled circles. I'm basically being grilled on the assumption that:
A. I'm too stupid to have thought of any obvious solutions being proposed here and this don't have actual legitimate reasons for my preferences.
B. I owe the entire world justification for my preferences.
C. I speak for and represent the entire disabled community on all topics, even ones I'm only passingly familiar with because they don't happen to be big issues for me in specific.
Bags aren't banned where I currently live. They are banned in California. I was living there at the time that they were banned. I was also homeless at the time. People are equally aggressively dismissive of comments I make about the bag ban being a burden on the poorest of the poor.
Poor people, disabled people and women seem to all be equally dismissed. And then folks just can't seem to understand the rage some folks in those populations feel about various things.
Which is like wow. Seriously?
Earlier, you made a post where the whole end chunk was about how going without plastic bags assumes the use of a car.
Then someone disagreed, with detailed examples about how it's not dependent on a car.
You interpreted this as condescension and not trying to understand you. What the hell? They were disagreeing with a part of your argument that wasn't about you at all, since you don't have a car.
They weren't dismissing you because of anything you are.
Also, being able to name a way a policy hurts some particular poor or disabled person doesn't mean it's overall bad for that group. For example: Plastic bags can hurt some poor people that can't easily use alternatives. But when bags aren't free then groceries themselves will be slightly cheaper. This will benefit a different subset of poor people.
Sometimes other people want to add nuance, too. Disagreement with part of what you say is not dismissing you.
I was thinking with my engineering brain for a simple and obvious solution to a simple and obvious problem. So sorry if that came out as a something dismissive.
But yeah looking from so far away it seams California has much bigger problem than plastic bags...
As someone who picks up groceries every week on a bike, a canvas bag is the way to go, purely from a practical, selfish standpoint; if you've ever carried home groceries, you know that plastic bags are probably the worst way to do it. They are hard to handle, prone to tears, and generally unreliable. On the other hand, a large canvas backpack or bag won't tear, can be used plenty of times, and generally works much better.
That plastic ban bag is a good thing -- if you want the convenience of a one time use bag, you should pay for it.
One group got lucky with allergies when it comes to one item out of millions. That's not a good reason to lock down the composition forever.
We should help them to compensate for the trouble, but the most effective way is to do it directly. It's possible to use less effort to make them come out ahead, while still keeping the overall benefits from the material switch.
Well it might be regional difference, but I don't remember seeing anyone just "sticking their stuff in their shopping cart, take it out to the trunk, and driving home." Who likes to have their watermelons roll over their basil? Everybody who drives to the local Trader Joe's either bring their own bags or buy paper bags.
There might be an argument against plastic bag ban, but I don't buy this one.
Also, even if you buy just three dozen eggs (which might be one of the cheapest things you can fit in a shopping bag), the cost of a paper bag (10 cents?) is already something like a few percent of the whole purchase. Sure it might be a burden, but it doesn't seem like an excessive burden, especially since you can reuse a paper bag for months.
When plastic straws were first introduced, people complained that they were too light and wouldn’t stay down in carbonated drinks.
That still doesn’t answer the question I raised in my post though. Where the standard paper straws wax paper?
Why is it silly? Untreated cellulose is extremely absorbent. Other paper utensils that will either hold liquid or be exposed to liquid are almost always treated with wax or plastic.
I've had some paper straws that were okay. But I've had many that were soggy within 15 or 20 minutes? Particularly straws in milkshakes. But I suspect doesn't help that I'm in Florida – the high humidity means paper straws probably have a higher moisture content than other places, just by virtue of being in this environment. So it takes less absorption from the drink to make them loose structural integrity and start to collapse.
Generally, they're single drink use. You might get a second glass worth if you drink fast.
I don't really notice a wax on them. If they happen to have any.... they might as well not bother.
I'm a born/raised Floridian, so I grew up on all the propaganda about ocean life getting tortured by soda rings, straws and other garbage. One of my transplant friends threw away some some soda rings without snipping them. I lectured/yelled at them for a good 15 minutes and showed them pictures of animals who got caught in the rings.
We give a shit about sea turtles and no one complains about paper straws out of fear of being stabbed to death by Florida man as he protects the sea life.
Also they apparently all use photo-degradable plastic since 30 years ago.
Plus, straws blow in the wind by decent and fair accidents.
In truth, I’m not opposed to the paper straws. They’re only really annoying when you’re at a bar. Alcohol seems to unwrap them faster than soda. I can let them sit in a non alcohol drink for a good 30 min before I notice an issue. Rum & coke... eh... 15? Just means I have to drink faster and drink more :)
"Petition creator Martin Reed started it a week ago, complaining the new paper straws dissolve as you drink them.
"Many social media users agree, with some claiming paper straws are "horrible" while one says it is like "drinking a milkshake through an empty toilet roll tube"."
I don't think most people want to taste straws. I certainly don't.
Works pretty well other than getting the ocasional sideways question about what the metal straw I keep in my bag is for.
Hygienic issues are the main concern I have with metal straws (e.g. when cafes have them for reuse). I'm assuming the one sold to you came with something like a pipe brush to run through it.
For public locations it's really going to be on the staff to clean this thoroughly as I doubt a dishwasher is going to be enough.
Wood for me would be worse in this regard, more opportunities for things to get stuck on them (or soak into the wood if lacquer fails)
I hardly think I am exaggerating by stating this concern. The development of one-time use cups (like dixie cups) was primarily to address sanitary issues. I can see lipstick on a glass, I can't see funky residue inside a straw.
I've discussed issues with soap use at some cafes that use reusable ceramics (as it can leave a residue and affect the flavor). One owner of a higher end cafe told me that they chose rather to sanitize their cups with a high temperature commercial dishwasher. This violates their local health code but is practically acceptable.
Anyways, I know it's possible to disinfect straws, but if it proves to be more complicated or requires a lesser known process (like boiling them), the odds if it not being done properly or not at all go up.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/snappower/rain-straw-th...
I'd suggest the first place to start is to just question whether a straw is necessary. I think they're mostly a gimmick, apart from their use by some disabled people.
This one https://sg.carousell.com/p/coffee-bean-and-tea-leaf-collapsi...
I asked a disabled person with cerebral palsy about what he thought of paper straws. His answer: "I don't see the point in having a paper straw if the cup is already plastic"
The answer doesn't need to be that everyone uses plastic straws just to cater for a niche market.