Comment by cryptica | Hacker News Reader

Comment by cryptica | Hacker News Reader

I cannot relate to this article at all. It's the polar opposite of my experience.

I've been desperately trying to get into a management position for years. I started programming at age 14 and am now approaching 30. I created projects using basically every major programming language, created and maintained a complex open source project which now has over 5K GitHub stars and several tens of thousands of weekly downloads.

I have experience managing the community around the source project and doing peer reviews. Feedback from the community is overwhelmingly positive. I can't even make a consulting business around the project because it works too well, the documentation is good and the community is very helpful.

I got passed up for promotion many times - In spite of consistently delivering beyond all expectations and despite my background as a long time open source developer. I've had people younger and less experienced than me get promoted above me twice! First time this happened, I quit the company about 1 month later (they were very upset/regretful when I handed my resignation).

Then it happened to me again at my current company - In spite of the fact that they are using my open source software as the core of their product (since before I joined). Even the biggest competitors of my current company started using my OSS project. Still no promotion. WTF do I have to do to get promoted? I've told the CTO multiple times that I want a promotion so it's not like they don't know.

In my experience, people are usually promoted into management when they demonstrate leadership. I see you talk about your technical ability a lot, but that is generally not the core competency of an engineering manager. I suggest working on those abilities. It is very much so one of those situations where doing the job will get you the title.

I run and maintain a successful open source project which is used by thousands of companies and has a small team of contributors who work for free. So maybe your definition of leadership is outdated. It should be all about results. All the rest is BS IMO.

Maybe you have bad habits, maybe you aren’t in the right social circles. Maybe not interviewing at enough companies. Hard to say. But you should keep your mind open and not only point a finger outward.

Believe there are management coaches that might spot self defeating habits quickly. Books like andy grove’s and innovators dilemma, peopleware, dale carnegie etc, can help too.

>> maybe you aren’t in the right social circles

I think this may be the case. I don't have many friends but those that I do have are very close.

The foundation of most friendships among the wealthy seems to be shared financial interests. This is not real friendship IMO and I cannot understand why supposedly intelligent people (who already have a high level of financial security) would participate in this kind of social theater where everyone is acting and everyone knows that everyone else is also acting and yet they all keep playing along. Friendships must be founded around core values not around mutual financial interests.

> In my experience, people are usually promoted into management when they demonstrate leadership.

Really? In my experience, people are often promoted into management when they demonstrate political ability.

Often the people who I consider the true leaders - engineers who everyone considers competent, good advisors, mentors and role models, etc - continue quietly being engineers.

Several times, I’ve seen organizations reward people who were adept at deflecting and spinning projects, goosing metrics and hiring quickly (despite a lack of fit/competence in their hires). The teams that they led were demoralized and rudderless, but you’d hardly know that from how they were rewarded and promoted.

In pathological orgs yes, they do exist but shouldn’t be a goal.

Agreed. The definition of leadership that most leaders have in mind is very superficial. They just want people who look and talk like a leader but they're willing to compromise on everything else (all things that actually matter in terms of producing value). Most software companies either are mini-monopolies or they are able to keep securing VC funding through social connections so they can afford to have mediocre leaders who can talk but don't deliver.

It sounds like you're not quite used to the political game that comes with getting ahead in the corporate world. If that is the case, do you honestly believe you would be happy in management?

Yes. If I had the power, I would put an end to these games.

Ok, the reason is coming into focus. There’s a natural arrogance that comes from being smart and in your twenties. I wasn’t the worst but suffered from it a bit myself, and remember a colleague who was almost intolerable. We’d all get a good chuckle from him once in a while.

The idea one can put an end to politics with non-tiny groups of humans is unrealistic.

Definitely move Dale Carnegie to the top of the reading list and then actually follow the advice. Growing older and wiser and more humble just takes time though. Strangely enough, skydiving also helped me accelerate the process.

If you don't mind me asking, why do you want to be a manager ? Aren't there promotion opportunities in dev track ?

PS: Please do go with the support plan route for your open source project. You wouldn't know how it will turnout unless you try.

> PS: Please do go with the support plan route for your open source project. You wouldn't know how it will turnout unless you try.

But mind that there are more scenarios than "works out" and "doesn't work out". It might also for instance be that you get some customers, but too few to pay the bills, but too many to switch of the light. It might also be that suddenly paying customers demand the project to go a different route than you (and the contributing community) envision. Both of these can bring major tension to something, which had been fun before ...

Doesn't mean it's not worthwhile, but be prepared for it, to keep it on a track you're happy with.

Moving from being an individual contributor to a manager isn't a promotion: it's a career change. I moved into management in my 30s because I thought I could provide more value as an engineering manager than as an IC. I spoke to my management, and they agreed.

Have you talked to your manager about this? If your company has a non-terrible leadership, they should be able to tell you what specific qualities they look for in management and what you need to improve.

Do you have yearly reviews with your manager? Make it clear that you want to get into management. At the very least, they won't be surprised if they fail to move you to management and you leave (and they'll be forced to confront the choice in those terms before making it).

As someone who's about to enter management track, I'd be curious (and open to a conversation!) about what you've been doing to both demonstrate your management skills and putting up your hand about your desires.

Sometimes, your own managers don't know what you want, until it's too late! But I don't want to assume anything, so please do start a conversation if you're up for it!

Interesting. I can relate to it 100%. This happened to me and I made my way back to programming exactly as described.

You are probably more useful as a developer. And better paid.

It sounds like you need to work on your people skills

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