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Comment by jac_no_k | Hacker News Reader

This "continuous deployment" for cars must be a logistical nightmare. To do repairs for a given vehicle, keeping track of what parts are backward compatible would be challenging. What if it's a compatibility breaking change? Then keeping inventory for older cars would become problematic.

Unless they do design with maximum compatibility. Then it gets interesting as upgrades are possible.

While B.EV cars maintenance is low, my car 7 months into ownership revealed bad battery cells that needed replacing. If the car was say five years old, would this replacement have been possible?

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Is it any worse than what other manufacturers deal with? The 2019 Honda Accord shares some parts with the 2018 Honda Accord which shares some parts with the 2017 model... when something breaks in my Honda the first question is "do they still make/use this part or did they change it in newer models?"

Gee, I hope they have some kind of system to track that. Maybe software even?

I find it hard to imagine they wouldn't

That was sarcasm

tangentially, MFW I realized hours later who I sarcasmed at.

You jest, but years ago I worked for one of the largest auto parts places. You have no idea how many times you'd input year, make, model, and trim, just to be presented with multiple choice questions. Nobody knew how big their drums were, in inches, or the number of blades on their fan, the length of their belts, etc. Apparently a lot of mixing and matching happens. Some folks legitimately had to give us a prior year for us to find the right part.

Yep. Just went thru that 2 days ago with my father's GMC W series truck. The air filter I got from the retailer is for the previous generation, even though that's what their system says for the truck.

I had to hand the old filter to the store staff and have him copy the FRAM part number.

If you've ever been to a tesla service center, it's kind of interesting.

Cars glide in silently and when they sit there for a bit the words "Service Mode" come up in maybe 5" high letters on the dashboard.

There are lots of technicians on their computers. The car info comes up on the specific car and shows lots of history, where and when it was last serviced and so forth.

Each car seems to have it's own personal list of options and features, that shows up on the website when searching for cars, or when signing into you car portal.

folks have taken the time to document them:

https://github.com/timdorr/tesla-api

https://github.com/fredrikfjeld/tesla-options-decoder

I think all cars are like this, but telsa is less rigid / concerned about model years and just consults the database for the specific car's info at every step.

The dealerships use VIN numbers, which end up getting you the exact part you want, even if the same car model of the same year has different parts. I suppose some of the retailers don't have this privilege.

"Vehicle Identification Number numbers"?

Just like PIN number, ATM machine, CAC card, and "is that a work PC or personal?"

It's a very typical construction, for whatever reason.

"is that a work PC or personal?"

I disagree with putting this one into the same category. The "personal" in "PC" means "used by a single person; not shared" which is quite different from the meaning of "not belonging to an employer".

At least you use LED as a noun. In Poland, I constantly hear people saying "LED diode". I keep correcting this and "PIN number" indiscriminately.

See also, “-gate” for scandals.

Mitchell & Webb on "Watergategate"

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w

Is that an LCD display?

For the most essential part of a normal gas engine - motor oil - my local parts center outright asked to see my engine to confirm the oil spec printed on it, even though every car for a decade in my product line had the same oil. Not because they expected to be wrong, but because they could not risk being wrong. I can only imagine what they’ve seen that makes them so wary.

Whenever I go to the dealership to get an original part (typically if there's several slightly different variants available and I don't know which I need), they just input my license plate number into their system, then click through a menu to find the part (like chassis->steering->link arm->left side). Takes about 30 seconds, they show me a picture to confirm it's right, then they go grab my part from the warehouse. (This is a European manufacturer.)

If it's like any of the bunch of MES systems I've seen or worked on, it's utter garbage bordering on crime against humanity.

I’ve had a couple of American cars and apparently year-by-year or even in the same model year the manufacturer changes the location of certain parts, which I didn’t expect. Mechanics and I have had trouble finding various parts like fan relays and cabin air filters.

Mid year ECR's to fix problems are not uncommon, but tend to be fairly minor.

What source are you using for where a part is placed? I've seen similar things (relay is under drivers dash, when it reality its under the passenger seat or some nonsense like that) when using crappy documentation (chiltons, or similar which does a "teardown" on a single year and then sells it for the entire generation). I can't remember seeing these kinds of errors in actual manufacture/dealer shop manuals.

I attempted to learn the locations by comparing it to other vehicles in non-official documentation or instructional videos online. I’m not sure what resources the mechanics have.

The fan relays, for instance. Apparently Chrysler moved the location between 2006 and 2008, and I had a 2007. In the 2007 models, apparently the relays are in one of three places. Actually four, as mine where is somewhere entirely different which was difficult to access without a lift.

Next, a cabin air filter for my 2015 vehicle. Two lube places have tried to replace t and been unable to find he location (they say it’s oke of two places). They said they think I don’t have one, which is contrary to what the manufacturer says.

This is pretty common. My 2017 and 2019 Jeep Grand Cherokee had small differences. My 2000 E46 also had small differences including having an Iron block that was switched to an Aluminum block. Not to mention small design choices like knobs, switches, and buttons.

Dont you want manufacturers to fix something mid production if they find an issue?

My assumption was that the process was more rigid, and everything was thoroughly standardized and determined before the car went into production.

A former Tesla employee, who worked on their IT infrastructure and whose NDA has expired, has revealed the technical shit show going on behind the scenes at Tesla. (I'm a Tesla fanboy as well, but this is scary).

https://twitter.com/atomicthumbs/status/1032939617404645376

That is a highly amusing/horrifying thread.

If someone wants to copy-paste some parts instead of pictures, here's the link to all his posts in that thread.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=38...

I bought a 2013 Model S recently that had its wheels swapped with a 2016 Model S by a third party before sale (I didn't care for the 21" wheels that were on the 2013, and the buyer of the 2016 wanted them). Shortly after driving away from the dealer, the tire pressure sensor system reported faults. After bringing it in to Tesla they said the newer tires and older car were not compatible, but they could easily downgrade the electronics in the wheels or upgrade the electronics on the car. They were both about the same cost, so I just had them update the wheels.

I'd bet that the TPMS (tire pressure monitor/sensor) in the wheels is an off the shelf component purchased from a top-10 supplier in the automotive industry, and the problem was as simple as not having the TPMS programmed for the car. This is the same problem you can encounter if you replace all four TPMS in most any medium to high end car manufactured after about 2006, and the tire shop forgets to use their handheld wireless EEPROM flasher to apply the car's VIN to the new TPMS modules.

This sort of complexity is why I like pre smog era cars

Ehh, I never want to go back to the days of points and carbs.

Aren't those the cars that made the smog tho?

Same reason I like bikes. I can pull the whole thing apart in a day and understand what every bit does. As soon as you start including electronics you end up with black boxes that no human could ever understand entirely.

Even with bicycles, those days are almost over. Wireless electronic shifting is trickling down from the top-of-the-line bikes.

The charm of a bicycle being mechanically simple is going away...

I'm not sure if wireless shifting will ever become standard. I have an ebike with di2 and I haven't noticed any reason I would want it over regular shifting. You also have the problem that if the battery goes flat you cant shift gears.

One of the big reasons for electronic shifting counter-intuitively applies to “daily riders” more than to race machines, even though at current prices, electronic shifting is rare on affordable bikes.

That reason is that once you have a solenoid, sensors, and a CPU in the mechanism, you have a self-adjusting shifter. The more gears on a derailleur-type system, the tighter the spacing, and the sooner a mechanical shifter needs adjustments or replacement of the cable.

Electronic systems can adjust themselves as needed, offering a massive potential for affordable bicycles to “just work” for people who don’t have the inclination to fiddle with their own adjustments.

Tell me about it, I had a 2007 1 series BMW and its transmission computer became dead. Now, I was quoted 4000USD at the dealership (the car was worth about 5000 at that point). I went to a third party specializing in automatic transmission and they almost could do it by swapping the computer from a crashed car.

Turns out it needs an encryption key (who only the dealership has) to get the car to recognize the computer, otherwise it won't even start. I sold it for parts and will never have an automatic BMW again.

According to the transmission guy things have only gotten worse with newer models, particularly Audi/Volkswagen and BMW.

https://hackaday.com/2018/10/26/dmca-review-big-win-for-righ...

However, the actual practice of applying the now-legal practice to something like you described is far above the technical skill of most automotive shops. Some tuners may be able to do it, so it might be worth asking around and doing some digging if this happens to anyone else.

Reminds me of a guy I met once. He ran a small auto repair shop focusing on a single brand (Audi, AFAIR). He had a special device to talk with cars' computers and a laptop for it with software and appropriate keys. He explained to me that getting this from the auto manufacturer would cost a small fortune; instead, what he did is contract with some Chinese people, who from time to time would RDP to the laptop and update whatever in that software that needed updating; with the interface that I think was probably second-hand also, it apparently costed only a fraction of what manufacturer would want.

One thing to keep in mind is that one person's spare part may be another' srolen car or car parts. Especially in Europe, stealing parts is a thing. Some gangs won't steal entire cars, but only break in and take parts according to a "shopping list". Locking components to one another helps to make stolen parts useless and acts as a deterrent.

Then there should be a mechanism of being able to prove provenance of part and forcing the manufacturer to "re pair" components into another car without having to pay an absurd price.

Yeah my dad and my mother both had their cars broken into and both of their steering wheels stolen. The door locks were surgically removed and nothing else was touched or ruined. They only removed those parts and went their way.

Cars like other pieces of technology are gradual. Its pretty easy to pick up a 90's era car with electronic fuel injection and spark advance while still having a fairly simple emissions system, and actual relays and mechanical buttons to turn on things like cruise control.

If that is to much, you can go back to the early 90's or late 80's for systems where only injectors are electronic and based solely on a couple simple sensors (mas air, or o2 sensor) and things like spark advance are still done in with a distributor + vacuum. Its all a question of what you want to tolerate, but the advantages of EFI+electronic spark advance or VVT are immense for both reliability and efficiency.

In other words, let’s kill off people [0] from air pollution so car maintenance can be simpler.

0: http://www.prevenzione.ulss20.verona.it/docs/Sisp/Inquinamen...

I mean sure. But my gas vehicle is purely recreational, it gets a few hundred miles a year at most. I really enjoy teaching myself car maintenance and repair with it. Being an 80s car, it’s super roomy in the engine area and easy to work on.

No one is dying because I own and drive this car today. Someone might’ve died mining the lithium for my Tesla however.

This is all to say that your comment is reductive.

If someone died mining our hypothetical battery, that is a choice they made (assuming that we all know working in mines is dangerous). OTOH we have little choice in breathing in smog... clean air is a communal resource we all have to share.

And the problem isn’t your gas vehicle that you rarely use, it’s the general concept of everyone from Volkswagen to our local auto sports enthusiasts thinking their smog doesn’t really matter that much.

I assume there's a mortality rate for software developers. Is it therefore the software developers fault if they die on the job? Should we shrug a point out that that career was their choice?

Does this thinking extend to other activities? The mortality rate for sleeping in non zero after all....

I guess I’d draw an analogy to astronauts, firefighters or race car drivers. Obviously mining, firefighting, space flight and racing should be made as safe as possible from a worker’a rights perspective. But anyone going in to those careers hopefully understands the risks!

And thanks for the reply, I was wondering what the downvotes were about — my comment apparently was blasé, especially since many miners frequently don’t have much other economic opportunity.

In defense of GP, their comment is properly reductive as this is how things generalize when deployed large-scale. Your smog may not kill anyone and my smog may not kill anyone, but it's also true that X% greater in emissions leads to Y% more premature deaths, so some extra Y% people are going to keep dying if these emissions are not reduced.

I don't think GP meant it to be personal. But Kant's categorical imperative does work in some cases, so it's worth remembering.

You can like something without wanting to go back to it. It's nice being able to fix your own car, but great fuel efficiency and low emissions is also nice.

I wonder how much of the additional complexity is actually necessary for lower emissions.

More to the point, how much of the complexity is an excuse to charge $4000 at the dealership for something an independent mechanic could do for $495 except that there is some kind of DMCA nonsense in the car to prevent that on purpose.

Most of the complexity arises from using feedback loops in the engines similar to other control systems in industry. There are also similarities to techniques used in electronics.

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/04/19/earth-day-2...

The problem isn't electronics itself. The problem is a frankly evil combination of artificial technical and legal barriers that prevent you (or your local car repair shop) from being able to do fixes and checkups yourself. In a nicer world, you'd have standardized interfaces and tools released to facilitate repairs of the complicated systems in cars.

OBDII has been legally standardized on all cars for years. However it only covers basics, every engine is different on details and so you can't get far on the standard alone.

The 90s have a sweet spot in automotive history where they finally got all the 80s-prototyped computer-controlled smog equipment refined and simplified, but hadn't yet let the computers infect every other nook and cranny of vehicles.

I basically aim for just before fly-by-wire became commonplace when considering ICE vehicles. No throttle cable? No way.

In states that don't have their head up a certain bodily orifice "pre-smog" is a rolling window. Requiring people to maintain emissions systems in their stock configuration on cars pushing 50 is insane. If you really are hell bent on making people smog stuff that's old and uncommon to the point of being a rounding error to the big picture then just stick a sniffer in the tail pipe and pass it as long as it meets or exceeds the standards it was built for.

Your local Walmart auto care center will reset/relearn the TPMS system for free, and the tool they use does support Tesla.

Teslas have a button on the menus in the console for that kind of reset... must have been more than just a different vin.

> ... * and the problem was as simple as not having the TPMS programmed for the car.*

This is fairly common for those people who put on winter tires with 'winter rims'. Many people don't bother with TPMS devices for cost reasons, and just live with the low pressure "warnings" for the colder months.

* https://www.automobilemag.com/news/the-trials-of-installing-...

Of course having lower pressure means worse gas mileage, so one can end up recouping some of the cost of the sensors by being properly inflated.

I know of 2015 Ford changed their TPMS sensors so you couldn’t do a straight swap between 2013 and 2016 vehicles. Wouldn’t be surprised if the rest of the industry changed too.

Tesla's supply chain management system was built in house. Combined with configuration tied to the VIN, I don't see it as being onerous. Backward compatibility, while not easy, is straightforward (dependency graph). If a subsystem incompatibility exists and parts cannot be sourced from Tesla inventory or an OEM, you replace the entire system (and pray to whatever deity you believe in it happens under warranty).

Tesla provides a very generous battery pack & powertrain warranty (8 years/infinite miles for S and X, 8 year/100k miles for Model 3); you're not going to be opening up the high voltage pack to replace cells yourself. Tesla will perform the work, or swap the pack if necessary.

EDIT: Note this is only a comment on Tesla's supply chain tracking system, and doesn't discuss their difficulty in getting replacement parts out to customers.

Well, given that people report their Teslas sitting in the shop for months to get repaired, the logistical supply chain doesn’t seem to be working too well.

I think that's an intentional choice to optimize sales of new cars. Every part made goes into a new Tesla and there are no replacement parts available.

revolutionizing the supply chain and auto industry

Walled garden revolution. Going to the breakers/wrecking yard for parts is akin to open source software. You are locking yourself into proprietary code, parts and pricing in this Tesla 'revolution'. A wing mirror costs $550 for example. Only authorized Tesla maintenance is permitted etc etc...

>A wing mirror costs $550 for example

I wish. I was quoted $1450 for a new wing mirror for my wife's X...

read the story of the guy with the bmw who tried to swap in a part from another one, and it wouldn't work unless the dealer programmed it to work with that new car's vehicle id. so he sold his car.

That's a common problem when trying to upgrade the iDrive head unit with one from a donor car. It can be done but requires special tools and knowledge.

In BMW's defence, they would validate the car as a system and wouldn't want to be seen to be giving implied consent for making these frankencars. Software configuration isn't like hardware; a bolt can be replaced with any bolt made by anyone as long as it is of comparable specification.

Yes, I know that's a common way of doing things. Once you are out of warranty, imho the reason companies do this is just to force people to get stuff through dealers. I was replying to someone that said tesla was different because you were stuck in their world for parts etc. So it's not really different?

Yes, but that means their supply chain management is completely unproven at this point. Knowing which parts belong in a specific vin # is the easy bit. Making sure the right parts get out there so that each model has repair parts available is the hard bit.

This is great until you want to do repairs or maintenance yourself or via lower cost aftermarket. It’s essentially locking you into the OEM service model.

Correct. This is a choice you make as a Tesla customer (disclaimer: I have made this choice). I understand Tesla's position (brand protection, workload reduction), but also support Right To Repair; I don't have a solution I can offer in this instance. My hope is that Right to Repair legislation and Tesla's profitability intersect at some point in the future, where allowing aftermarket work is more palatable to Tesla while also requiring them to support it (Massachusetts has Right To Repair legislation that does require Tesla to provide some bare minimum support to customers and techs in that state).

If I'm Elon Musk, I don't want a news piece about Joe Schmoe electrocuted in his garage when he attempted maintenance on a Tesla 400V battery pack. So you sell to people who aren't interested in that use case. Like a baby cub and mama bear, you must protect the brand until it has grown big enough to protect itself.

Right to repair isn't just about J. Schmoe in their garage though. You also have to consider other shops that are well qualified to do the repairs.

I've also been in "professional" shops where the qualification is questionable, but I understand your argument. There are Tesla Certified body shops; we'll see how the workload shakes out between those facilities and Tesla Service centers. Tesla recently updated their service intervals for all vehicle models due to fleet data showing less service was required than previously indicated [1]. How many times have you seen an automaker do that?

[1] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-car-maintenance-plan-service... (Tesla’s vehicle reliability makes way for as-needed service, no annual maintenance needed)

Of course shops that aren't qualified wouldn't be included in the category of shops that are qualified. That's tautological. Doesn't matter if they are "professional" or just plain old professional.

Many auto makers have moved their oil change intervals out to 10,000 miles when they've previously pushed 3 or 5.

In theory the oils and engines have improved to the point where 10k miles is a sound number based on evidence. However given that the only downside to more frequent oil changes is the cost of the oil change, if you plan to keep a car for a very long time, changing it more frequently than the recommendation is a reasonable plan.

Longer oil change intervals are undoubtedly fine for an engine that is expected to last at least to the end of the warranty period. Which is all the manufacturer cares about.

Actually long oil changes can be better for an engine. Oils break in: the molecules break down over time so they compensate by making the chains longer. As the molecules break down they get closer to the idea size, then the break again and get too short to protect.

Tests on the oils used in my car show that you typically get least engine wear between 8k and 9k miles, with 12k being about the same as fresh oil, but 13k is much worse. Because of the sudden dropoff at 13k and the fact that different driving styles affect breakdown differently 10k is chosen as the best compromise. Newer cars get longer because the computer keeps track of driving styles to give a better change indicator.

That's genuinely fascinating and I'd like to learn more about it. Can you recommend some reading material for me? (Or better still an Engineering Explained-style YouTube video if someone has covered the topic well in that form.)

The above was gained from reading forums. My personal judgement is the people saying the above know more about oil than me (they at least understand enough chemistry that my college chemistry doesn't see anything wrong, but I went into computer science so I didn't take more than the basic chemistry for engineers so it is possible that they are wrong on details.

One other point they brought up: every time you open the system to add or check oil dust gets in. Modern engines are generally sealed so this dust until it is filtered out (assuming it is) is doing wear as well. Long oil changes with no checking of the oil level are thus a good thing as well - so long as your oil level never gets low - low oil is far worse than any gain from not checking oil levels.

>I understand Tesla's position (brand protection, workload reduction), but also support Right To Repair; I don't have a solution I can offer in this instance.

The solution is to not buy a tesla. By buying one you are supporting the move away from right to repair.

The rapid electrification of transportation is more important to me than Right to Repair. Life requires compromise. We can revisit when warming trajectory has been bent downward from 4C.

While I understand and agree with your point, you are missing the tiny fact that all EVs today are very expensive cars. Even the cheapest ones can't be compared to the value of used ICE cars, by a huge margin.

One example - fiancee bought a used toyota corolla some 7 years ago for cca 4000$. Some 70000 km afterwards, the car needed few oil changes, once rear brake discs swap and tire changes. That's it, for 70000 km ride with very low fuel consumption (diesel). The car still runs fine and probably will for quite a few years.

There are whole countries where for most of its citizens, this is the only way to ever have a car. They will never afford to put 6x as much for a new one, or even more for new EV. I know as I come originally from one such country, and its by no means a 3rd world country.

You reach the scale to sell cheap cars by first selling expensive cars to people who can afford to buy expensive cars. Someone has to eat the margin that Tesla uses to expand its manufacturing capacity for batteries and vehicles, and for the deployment of the Supercharger network. Where else would the money come from?

If you want to bring more people in to EV, you don't make cheap cars, you make durable cars and let the second market handle the rest. Tesla's aren't durable cars because price for maintenance and repair factors into the equation, and tesla has ensured those costs are high.

I doubt it's significantly different from an ICE repair point of view. I do a lot of car repairs myself, and have done things for friends in the past. One memorable time I was helping a friend who had a Toyota van for work (can't remember the exact model, this was early 90s). It needed new brake hoses. After some messing about with pattern ones that didn't fit, we went to Toyota and spoke to the parts guy who said there were TWENTY SEVEN different options for the front brake hoses on that van, and even having the VIN was no help - we needed to take the original in for him to identify it correctly, as even the microfiche (yes, we're talking that long ago) wasn't accurate enough to identify it - he ordered (I think) 5 in which looked like a match and sent the other four back.

While this is an extreme example, there are plenty of different options on most cars as the manufacturers will source different parts for different markets, and in some cases totally different subsystems which look identical externally but are totally different functionally (immobiliser and ECU on a Mk 4 golf springs to mind).

I'm guessing they have software that contains a full bill of materials for each vehicle. Boeing does this for every individual plane, and a plane is significantly more complex than a Tesla. I'm sure they are very aware of how many of each parts are out there on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if the vehicles themselves periodically phone home with use information so they can predict wear and tear.

AFAIK that's pretty standard for most manufacturers. I can look up my SUV's VIN online and get its full configuration.

You can get the basics of a Tesla from the vin, but there are more details than just the basics.

Last time I had my brakes serviced, the workshop didn't know which discs to order because they used two different dimensions in the same model year. I had to come in, they had to take off the wheel, and measure the disc.

So I don't think this is unique to Tesla.

I operate several websites that help people find the right part for their car or tractor. It's always a nightmare.

They have very few moving parts. I am guessing they are switching battery pack modules out so it's not that hard. Theres battery packs, motos and basically thats it.

There are a lot of moving parts in the suspension, the transmission, the battery cooling system, the AC, the power windows, power steering, all the other comfort features like electric seats, electric tailgate, ...

Just because it doesn't need an oil change doesn't mean that it doesn't need service.

Theres no transmission, the battery cooling system isn't a moving part, the AC has one moving part, power windows have 1 moving parts, power steering have one moving part, electric components aren't moving parts.

Moving parts are mechanical parts, electronic, and pumps because of simplicity work for longer.

This is true for all manufacturers. I've owned "changeover year" cars from various manufacturers that had parts from both the older and newer revisions, very occasionally resulting in a garage ordering the wrong part leading to a delay. This isn't a Tesla-specific issue.

Even if Tesla can themselves manage the logistics, it's certainly a negative for potential consumers, especially second+ owners. Maybe Tesla will offer a VIN lookup so you can find out what a particular car's specs are while you're shopping.

Each OEM, including Tesla, maintain a database where each ever produced vehicles with all the options, including changes are recorded. Except, when they screw it up. They screw this up with PR samples and show cars, which are sometimes prepared by hand and finished up by hand just for the press or just for show. Then things get forgotten to record. Tesla had so such problems. Volkswagen had such problems and had to recall a 5 figure number, just because of this. Because PR and show cars are normally discarded after the show, after the press had it, but sometimes they get into the second hand market.

There was a twitter chain posted here about a year back where someone described how convoluted getting a Tesla off the factory floor is. All of the systems along the way have to be installed and flashed in a particular order to ensure nothing goes belly up.

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