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Comment by camelNotation | Hacker News Reader

Not only are Thinkpad keyboards the most comfortable and satisfying on the market, you can literally pour water on them and it will drain out the bottom of the laptop without ever touching internal components.

After using my Thinkpad for about six months, I can't go back. The keyboard is amazing, build quality is rock solid, screen is 4k with 100% RGB, and you can actually upgrade the thing.

I buy a laptop because I need a mobile keyboard experience. Why on earth would I buy a laptop with a keyboard that feels awful and can't handle normal use?

Honestly, if I absolute had to have OSX, I would just buy a Mac Mini and deal with the stationary aspect of it. Macbooks are just that bad. If I desperately needed portable Mac, I would probably even be willing to deal with iOS on the iPad pro over a Macbook.

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I want to like Thinkpads for their hardware quality, but I cannot get over Lenovo stuffing malware into their systems, even after they got caught. How can I be put at ease?

That was IdeaPad, nothing to do with ThinkPad.

Good to know, thanks! Do both lines have completely different engineering and management leadership? That might put me at some ease.

The Ideapads are built like the cheap piece of crap x86 Windows laptops you can buy from anyone. They are fine for grandma checking her email but they are not meant to be on the move or do anything hard. I'm assuming the engineering teams are totally different. Thinkpads aren't cheap and the build quality generally shows that.

Thinkpad quality is nowhere near what it was when IBM was building them however :(

I think the perceived quality of older TPs is higher, but the objective quality is not so.

They do. Thinkpads are made out of magnesium and are super durable. Build quality is pretty great. Should be more reliable than a mac.

Mac build quality really isn't all that great. Lots of glue and plastic hinges. Motherboard design is also atrocious. Check out Louis rossman on YouTube. I remember seeing a video where the webcam died because a thermal sensor stopped working and for some reason the webcam was wired into the same bus.

They also solder in ram and ssds now. They removed the data recovery port so if your ssd kicks the bucket there's no way to recover anything. That's what the T2 chip is for- they market it as some magical coprocessor but it's just an ARM chip that acts as a drive and ram controller so they can use soldered parts on the cheap.

The ThinkPad team is still Tokyo based https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Yamato_Facility the IdePad is from China.

well, you can do what I do and wipe the OS. Though, that's a bit of a time investment.

That's obvious, and certainly the first thing I'd do upon receiving such a device. But given how Lenovo got caught more than once pushing malware (after promising they'd fix it), I worry the problem could be deeply engrained in their product philosophy, and as such, I don't know that I'd even trust their firmware.

But maybe people change, and maybe I'm just being paranoid and depriving myself unnecessarily from hardware that I would like. (FWIW, I have used Thinkpads and greatly liked their keyboards, enough that I do consider them for every hardware refresh).

The harddrive that came with my ThinkPad hasn't seen electricity since it left the factory, I replaced it before I ever turned the laptop on.

The hard drive isn't the only place malware can live (the BIOS would be one example of another place).

Well, you do what you can.

Didn't the firmware add their malware to windows boot files, if detected? Not an issue if you can use another os, but if you need windows for some reason...

The malware was only found on the IdeaPad series (their consumer line). From reporting on it, the management team is separate from their business (Thinkpad) line, and the malware came from the 3rd party software packages that were included to subsidize the production of the low-end lines.

Those 3rd party packages are not a concern for the Thinkpad lines, since the higher business price point supports the lines without the need for subsidizing.

When I bought my thinkpad I booted directly to the Debian installer via USB and wiped the disk. I get great battery life (check the Arch wiki for tips on your specific machine to fix a few issues that may give it bad battery at first install).

The keyboard is wonderful and everything except the fingerprint scanner works great.

I get twenty goddamn hours from my X270 and it's incredible. I never use the fingerprint scanner, so I recommend Thinkpads all the time. Good connectivity too, although I'd appreciate maybe another USB port or two.

Just reinstall the OS

Macbooks used to survive that too. My 2009-ish Pro got half a liter of sweet tea to the keyboard. Keypresses sounded crunchy for almost a year, but otherwise it worked fine.

I still have a 2009 MBP (although was running linux for the last 5 years), I only just upgraded to a Dell XPS 13 this year.

Here's the funny thing: the keyboard started to fail after 9 years of use, this is the only thing that pushed me to finally get a PC replacement (new macs are terrible linux machines) - the little rubber domes under the keys just started cracking and breaking apart so some keys feel really squidgy - mind you they still work at least.

So there's a pretty insane statistic for you:

    - 2009 MBP = 9 years of keyboard use (my main computer)
    - 2019 MBP = <1 year before everyone has problems

Edit: RE the water thing, these models have a big sticky piece of plastic under the whole keyboard which seals it to the top case (I considered trying to replace it - although no one makes new ones so it seems kinda pointless, and quite difficult)

Just do what Apple would do and replace the entire top case. They typically run $30-$50 on eBay for older MBPs. That and a SSD upgrade (if you haven’t done that already) and you will have a functional backup computer again.

I added an SSD over half a decade ago, that's why I was absolutely fine with it's performance (at least after moving to linux and a minimal WM, OS X died for me long ago from bloat)... it's only the human interfaces that started to physically fail.

I know you can pick up spare parts for these but the problem is that they are all as old (they are commonly advertised as new on ebay, but they are not), they are used parts, and it is quite a lot of work to get all the guts out of the top case, only to replace it with a slightly less used components.

The best middle ground I could think of is to selectively replace rubber domes as they fail by cutting out the bits of silicone and gluing in new ones... only needs to pop of one key at a time.

I lost my 2009 MBP to a smaller water spill than that on the keyboard, so I don’t think there was any special design reason yours survived. Additionally, I don’t remember any special claims about those models and liquids.

It had a big plastic plane below the keyboard. Not the watertight with a drain hole type of Thinkpads, but still good enough if you're quick with turning the thing upside down.

I agree it's great hardware. Do you run Linux? Because my problem with Lenovo is Windows. It's hot garbage despite the perception that Windows is decent again.

But what's not great hardware is the touchpad. I always miss the Apple touchpad. It's perfect.

I run Ubuntu on a Thinkpad X1 Carbon. Runs beautifully out of the box, install was very easy, and I haven’t had a single issue with it.

I run Fedora 29 on TP Carbon X1 6th gen. Perfect - no issues for me.

Carbon touchpad is one of the bext non-Mac ones I have tried. is it perfectly up to par with Mac...no, but I havent found any that were.

Can I get my TP keyboard and Mac track/touchpad? That would be nice :)

I have a T460, and after typing on my work laptop (2015 MB Pro, by office policy), it feels heavenly going back to it at the end of the day. That keyboard is lightyears ahead of the Apple chiclet keys. I still fondly miss the actual scissor style keys of yesteryear Thinkpads, but I'll still take any Thinkpad keyboard over an Apple keyboard any time.

I remember knocking over a bottle of water onto my T420 freshman year of college. I knew the drain holes were there but never tested it. It was pretty nerve-wracking for a few minutes wiping up all the water and seeing my laptop still working.

Note that I believe the water pouring trick does not apply to the Thinkpad Carbon X1. I killed a third gen X1 years ago from a water spill. Luckily Lenovo fixed it for $500.

It really irritates me how much of a form over function bad laptop the X1 is. Yet Lenovo won't sell stuff like their best screens with say their T-series lineup so you have to make compromises either way.

What are the issues? I love my X1. I had one for work a few years ago and finally bought my own recently. It’s perfect for me. Can’t upgrade the ram, but that’s par for the course on ultraportables.

I dislike the keyboard.

I dislike them ditching the spill proofing.

I dislike the general lack of upgradability/repairability.

I would much rather have the t4xxs form factor with better quality components but you have to go x1.

According to the specs [1], the X1 Carbon Gen 3 does have a spill-resistant keyboard, and the current Gen 6 too. Given the compact design, maybe the liquid just couldn't escape from under the laptop in time, so it soaked the motherboard from below?

[1] https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-x/X1-...

Yeah, it definitely wasn’t the keyboard that was the biggest issue, it was the motherboard. I guess a spill resistant keyboard is great, but if you don’t have a spill resistant motherboard...

Spill resistant keyboard means there are slits inside that channel the water under the laptop without it reaching the motherboard.

The keyboards are good (although I'm also totally fine with the Macbook 2015 keyboard). However Lenovo and all others in the windows universe can't provide any touchpad experience that is close to what Apple can offer.

On my last Thinkpad I mostly opted to use an external mouse. On my Macbook I absolutely don't miss it.

I did the same thing. I need OSX, but hate the current laptop lineup. So I got a Mac Mini, eGPU, and a killer screen. Cheaper than an iMac, crazy performance, and very upgradable (apart from the soldiered SSD). Looking hard at a Thinkpad for my next laptop, even as a strict OSX user since 2004.

As a Mac and iOS user, I often feel that I'm just putting up with their bad hardware to use their operating system nowadays.

My only complaint with ThinkPads is that they are ugly as hell and I'm not an Apple fanboy. A device should look beautiful, clean and simple that you are looking at all day.

I'm not sure I agree. The newer ThinkPads, especially the thin lines like the P1 and X1 are beautiful devices, solid metal, matte black, very clean. Sure, they sell a few big and fat workstation designs as well, but you are getting an enormous amount of customizability and upgradeability for that. They have an option for every preference.

And even if you think all the models are ugly, a premium laptop is a very expensive purchase. Function follows form for most people when it comes to that kind of spending.

> A device should look beautiful, clean and simple that you are looking at all day.

That's valid. For my part, I literally could not care less how the device looks. I'll take the ugly one that works better any day of the week.

In my eyes, my Thinkpads (an T430 and X40, both deceased :-( ) do look beautiful, clean, and simple.

Thinkpads are IMO one of the few products that look better as they age. The traces of wear (and maybe a few appropriate stickers) give them the character that they are missing when new. There is something "real" and honest about that look - I like it very much.

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