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Ultimately it was not a technical failure: the failure was in allowing the plane to be sold with such a thoroughly bad design. Thus, a management and regulatory failure. Regulatory, because FAA signed off on it, obviously without applying any of the process that would have prevented it. Management, because the cost of this debacle will be many, many times what they saved by trying to skate by with a faulty design.

The airlines knew what they were doing when they didn’t pay for the “upgrade” and they doubly knew when they didn’t pay for it after the first crash. Airline management is just as culpable in this debacle.

Yeah, they willingly bought these planes. Airlines should be held as equable responsible.

You’re saying that Boeing intentionally sold unsafe airplanes? And the airlines, knowing this, still bought them?

I'm giving money to the airlines. Not Boeing.

>You’re saying that Boeing intentionally sold unsafe airplanes?

Yes.

>And the airlines, knowing this

You know airlines have their own engineering teams, right? And they were bought explicitly to save money.

There is more than enough blame to go around. E.g., Congress, for the last N decades, failing to fund FAA at levels clearly needed.

Beyond funding is the issue of regulatory capture. The FAA is too cozy with the plane manufacturers, allowing them to help test,certify,document their own products.

The biggest overarching change I would like to see is the abandonment of allowing manufacturers to extend the type rating of airframes indefinitely and designing to avoid costly recertification and training vs a true focus on safety and innovation.

This is bonkers. Nobody anywhere in the world should expect that one buys an airplane which is unsafe by design. Also, the idea that there are two versions of a plane, one that kills people and one that doesn't, and if you buy the wrong one that's completely your fault is just insane.

Frankly, you have no idea what you're talking about. This is how the airline industry works. Airlines WANT cheap planes and they ARE WILLING to and DO skimp on some safety features to save money. Airlines WANT safety features, at least some of them, to be optional so that they aren't forced to spend money on them if they don't want them.

For example, backup fire extinguishers in the cockpit? Optional. Extra oxygen masks? Optional. Advanced radar? Optional. There are hundreds of items like this on every model, whether it's Boeing or Airbus or someone else, because their customers WANT them to be optional.

And by the way, not all airlines do this. American paid for the upgrades. Southwest paid for the upgrades.

So maybe you should ask yourself why it is that Lion Air and Ethiopian Air were willing to spend huge amounts of money on a new jet, then spend some $1-$2 million on optional upgrades, and yet not include the MCAS upgrade in those options (and they were made well aware of it, as you can see from other airliners purchase of these upgrades). Or for that matter maybe you should ask why Lion Air knew that the plane was having trouble with the AoA sensors for several flights prior to the crash, and yet did not perform the required maintenance on them (a serious violation) and did not pass along information to its next crews (also a serious violation), who were caught completely unaware.

Airlines run at 2, 3% margin, and they do so by trimming costs at every possible area. Sometimes those areas are safety related. Airlines are not some doe-eyed naive little up who just trust whatever Big Boeing/Airbus tells them. They know how the planes work, they have their own pilots, they have their own engineering teams, they have their own specialists and experts, and they make decisions to sacrifice safety for savings, and they do it ALL THE TIME.

There's plenty I could say in answer to this but most of it is unnecessary.

There is no excuse for a company such as Boeing, working under the regulation of the FAA, to produce any version of any model of plane which is fundamentally unsafe to fly. Period. None.

We're done here.

Life must be great in black and white.

The 80K upgrade was simply a AOA disagree warning light and has zero affect on MCAS behavior. There is no evidence that airlines were told about MCAS until the Lion Air accident.

I think the blame shall be entirely on the management of Boeing. The engineering details are mainly a plea against management.

You watched the VOX video and are reposting the summery here?

They are going to fix the software with no changes to the design.

They don't need to change the design, that would be expensive overkill. Software updates are as close as we can get to Free. There is not a single company or human with infinite money to spend on anything, we can't always have the fantasy.

The MAX can be fixed by addressing the flaws in MCAS, and it will be in the end. The production will resume, the MAX will be a slightly less commercial success than it should have been, Boeing will be fined a few Billions for its failings, the FAA will have to take an hard look at itself, and everything will be ok.

I just hope the correct conclusions will be learnt from this crash:

* have a truly independent certification process

* don't fix your physical design issues with software

* don't write and maintain software running on an airplane like the software from the start-up world: significant design flaws are not tolerable for software running in an airplane, even if they can be fixed easily.

* don't hide new systems, if there is a new system, then pilot should be trained

by the way, it's not the first time a new system caught pilot by surprised because they didn't knew about it. SAS Flight 751 is another example, ice ingestion damaged the engines, the pilots reduced the thrust to reduce stress, but an automatic system (ATR, Automatic Thrust Restoration), unknown to the pilots, put the thrust back to full power, disintegrating the engines, the plane fortunately crash landed without fatalities thanks to the pilots skills and a bit of luck.

* Boeing should really think about replacing the 737, the old design is putting too much constraints, preventing a clean design.

Its not very easy to redesign the 737. Bigger Engines need more clearance. More clearance requires longer landing gear. Longer landing gear requires a wider plane to fold up into. A wider plane is less fuel efficient and needs bigger engines and suddenly you are a 757,767,787, or 777

> Its not very easy to redesign the 737.

Too bad. I know I am now permanently reluctant to fly 737s

You really shouldn't be. There is a lot of misconception going around that the 737 is inherently unstable. This is not true. The 737-600/700/800/900 was one of the safest designs ever built (http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/rate_mod.htm). Yet of the few crashes it had, a surprising amount was from pilot disorientation causing them to accidentally stall the plane.

MCAS is not a feature to correct an unstable aircraft, it's to correct a confused pilot. MCAS is triggered if the following circumstances are right: 1) The airspeed is near stalling speed (takeoffs and landings) 2) The AOA (as reported by both sensors now) is greater than the aircraft can climb.

The problem was that 1) the AOA data was faulty, 2) it did not check if there was a disagreement with the backup system 3) The aircraft failed to reset each time it took corrective measures such that each the correction was compounded. 4) the corrective action was 3 times more than approved.

All of these things have been fixed but it also shows how many things have to go wrong for something to be catastrophic. But the max has been built on a solid foundation and that's much better than having to start from scratch.

> Will the 737 MAX continue to fly for two to three decades after all the items above have been addressed? yes.

There is no doubt the MCAS can be fixed.

But I would say there with all the bad press the 737 MAX has received, there must be some doubt as to whether the 737 MAX will fly for decades to come.

I would say the flying public will need some convincing before they consider the plane safe.

> However, it's still flying today, and it's still a workhorse for cargo companies.

One of the reasons the DC10 is used for cargo, is very early on the DC10 faced it's own own 'bad design' issues that resulted in several fatal crashes.

A fault in the DC10 cargo door meant it sometimes did not close, which then resulted in an explosive decompression.

That fault and those early crashes greatly helped the 747 win the race to be the dominant wide body passenger jet of that time.

The flying public will buy the cheapest ticket, same as always.

This isn't even the first time a design flaw leading to loss of control has crashed multiple 737s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_rudder_issues

I'm confused with your response. So nothing to see here? Nothing to learn and change? You seem to say we should accept design flaws (like we did with the MD11?)... correct? Or?

Basically yes. The airlines learnt to mitigate the risks associated with the design, and there were a few small modifications (light indicator to detect bounced landing for example). There is a risk, but it's at acceptable level.

The fact is an airplane is a huge investment, made to last 20, 30 and in some cases even 40 years (not necessarily with the same owner). You cannot exactly throw it away and buy a new one even if it has defects. At most, it ends-up lasting a bit less (ex: 15 years instead of 20 years) or is relegated to a specific usage where the consequences of failures are less dramatic (ex: freight).

There are still 20/25 years old airplanes flying with passenger, which are inherently less safe than (properly designed) new airplanes because of their age and their avionics. Yet there are still flying.

Will it fly? I think we live in a different world now. The 737 MAX via social media has a perception of being a "Boeing death plane"

Public opinion could ground it.

The DC-10 did fine after its rough start. It's still flying today.

That's also the interesting part.

The DC-10 ended-up being a reliable airplane, but its early crashes damaged its reputation heavily, and the handling of these issues by MD was poor.

Commercially, MD never completely recover, and was absorbed by Boeing in the 90ies. (To be honest, it's not the only factor, you have also the L1011 competition and the fact a trijet was somewhat of an evolutionary dead end).

Boeing is much larger, and much stronger it can probably cope with it, but it will be a hit on their best selling aircraft. It's basically the 737 that finances the new 777 or 787, costly programs not certain to recoup design costs (same with Airbus, the A320 is basically financing the A380 failure). At the same time, part of the 737 market is a bit captive with the biggest low cost companies (Southwest, RyanAir) using it unlikely to switch.

From the people I've spoken to about this, I'd say less than half even know that the 737Max is a thing, never mind that it's crashed twice.

That is very interesting as it's been front-page news regularly in pretty much every newspaper (ok, I only read the NYT and WSJ, but it's quite the topic of discussion on those two papers).

Every time there is news my entire office lights up with discussion about it. Then again, I work for a company called "Pilot" so perhaps people are more interested than average. It's not an aviation company though ;)

There are thousands of “hacks” like this in every modern airliner. That’s how complicated problems are solved, you come up with a basic idea, and you iterate on it thousands of times until you squash all the edges cases.

Or, you know, you don’t put engines way too big for your frame.

You don't cover edge cases mainly by writing specific code for everything and adding on to the existing load. You do it mainly by creating an elegant single solution that covers all cases. Every line of code and every technical layer you add makes you susceptible to even more bugs and edge cases.

And just because the airline industry does software backwards, doesn't mean that you should do so.

There really aren't. Please don't state opinion as fact. There aren't "thousands" of "hacks" to make an airframe fly reliably. That is preposterous.

Please don't state opinion as fact.

OK, I am going to comment, as a certified and practising functional safety engineer with a TUV number and experience designing and building industrial systems to IEC61508 (functional safety parent standard) and IEC61511 (process industries).

Functional safety is the engineering discipline related to designing machinery instrumented safegaurding systems to protect humans from harm, to a deterministic safety performance level.

eg just the right amount of safety so that all the safety money is spent in the right places and right amounts so as to reduce risk across the board to the required level, not over-investing in one area and neglecting another (or so the dream goes, in practice it is a moving target based on a lot of guesses, you hope the swings and roundabouts balance out more or less).

Aeronautics design is one of the closely aligned fields within the group of this overall discipline. Closest thing I have worked upon in terms of risk/consequences is mine winders - safety failure can kill 10-100 people in one go, they ride multiple times every day.

Right now, this very minute before needing a break at 1am to browse hacker news, I was trying to wade thru a mess of a fault tree analysis my current project owners "specialised" consultant has produced for the systems I currently need to instrument for safety.

Most people in general, but especially Americans who live primarily with prescriptive standards, struggle to come to grips with the nature of performance based safety standards. There is no "do it like this and you have met code and have no problems" - you have to analyse and build everything up from scratch.

It is all about layers, layers of risk reduction that eventually (whether by perception or reality) get the risk down to an acceptable level. So there are cludgey little things that get stuck on as hacks to address this issue or that, not uncommonly often pet issues of one of the review panel. Repeat this several hundred or thousand times and any hope of some kind of uniformly elegent and simplified solution is pretty slim.

The general reliance is on redundancy and independence, eg layers of protection, "defense in depth", or as more commonly known "the swiss cheese model" - you get a bunch of slices of swiss cheese and when the holes line up to allow a path through, that is when an accident can occur. More layers, less chances (also smaller holes, but that is another story again).

And, as almost always, the machines are actually the easy part most of the time. It is the humans that design, build, test, maintain, certify the machines that are the weak point, over and over again. Plus the creative ways humans can get around systems in place to protect them, get their job done when the system is telling they should stop, or doing a maintenance task a new "better way" despite the manual that might have cost over $100k plus of engineering time to write and approve is telling them to do it a specific way etc etc etc

90% of the time overly conservative thinking during risk analysis occurs (we might get hit by a meteorite, happened to my cousin once), which can layer complexity and associated uncertainty and poor availability onto a solution.

10% of the time there is the wishful thinking of "it will never happen because I have never seen it or heard of it" that allows the unexpected and unusual (black swans often, if you will) to sneak through, at least for the first time. Endless discussions occur about "credible scenarios", sometimes the "discussion"is won by the dominant personality in the room, who might also be doing some of the pay reviews next month.

It is incredibly difficult to be the person that has to herd the flock of cats that represent all the stakeholders in a hazard revue and risk assessment. These workshops sometimes run for months, maybe in extreme cases for years on and off, considering every system, subsystem, part, action, event, procedure etc etc and all the possibilities and how they can go wrong and what might mitigate failures and events - and on and on.

I could write about this all night, but I guarantee you that any magical opinion or assumption you might have about graceful and elegant solutions to difficult and dangerous problems being the norm are unrealistic - there is a always a consensus or committee to satisfy, often top heavy with people that might have to own or operate the machine in question, but never designed anything in their lives. You fight for the things you know matter and concede some of the crap, hoping subsequent reviews will see it as pointless or not credible.

All of this is the reason that grandfathering is so attractive. To apply the current internationally recognized performance based safety standards from scratch to design something as complex as a plane that can kill hundreds of people in one go is an incredibly difficult task. And from a business perspective fraught with immense dangers of totally unpredictable outcomes impacting budget and schedule and even viability.

This is a highly specialised field with what are often counter-intuitive outcomes (otherwise you would just let John out the back room design the whole plane from scratch, because "he knows what he is doing").

While I am aghast at some of the information about some of the information about design decisions taken that is emerging, none of it surprises me in the least. I can see directly how a number of them may have effectively resulted from path of least resistance when a product had to be produced.

I like flying older planes in general, as long as the airline does reasonable maintenance. The unexpected has often been detected and corrected, the chances of latent faults turning up decrease with hours in service. Plus I always remind fearful daughter that the taxi ride to the airport is more dangerous, by the numbers.