I was having discussions with FB recruiter and some of their senior managers. I just informed them that I won't be pursuing that anymore.
FB engineers who are on HN: why are you still there? You can make similar money at several other companies without sacrificing your soul!
The tech industry worships money and those who make it, and there are plenty of engineers who'd take the FB compensation package in a heartbeat, regardless of FB's public image problem.
This idea that the public will act together morally to stop corporate malfeasance while sacrificing their good fortunes isn't that realistic. Look at the FB shareholder situation. Lots of shareholders are angry at Zuck but can't do anything about it. None of them seem particularly interested in selling their shares because they don't want to have to pay for his bad behavior.
... this does not need to happen. Plenty of other companies in the Bay Area pay as well as FB, but without the heartache.
Engineers aren't going to start quitting en masse until their compensation is threatened (i.e. the stock irreversibly tanks). In order for that to happen, shareholders need to stage a massive sell-off, which won't likely happen soon due to FOMO.
Google collects significantly more data than Facebook, and has a sordid past with sexual harassment and inappropriate relationships. Lyft, Uber, and AirBnB have openly flouted regulations, and that doesn't count Uber's other scandals. LinkedIn grew by emailing everyone's contacts without their permission (if you think what FB did here is bad, LI was far worse). High frequency trading and other fintech companies engage in front-running and derivatives trading that may be contributing to market volatility and systemic risk.
Comparably paying companies pretty much all have questionable histories.
Meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg has committed to investing in improving Facebook even at great expense (don't believe me? look up what triggered the nosedive in Facebook's stock last summer). Do you think Facebook will improve more if conscientious engineers left the company?
I'm not so sure. Certainly Google, Amazon, et al are just as bad as facebook.
This has been asked before on HN. The genuine answer is some combination of:
* criticisms of FB are wildly exaggerated. This takes many forms, but in this particular case I think it’s the issue of attributing to malice what’s best explained by incompetence. Somebody probably just reused some old email importing code without understanding it thoroughly. If you know anything about how FB works, that’s infinitely more plausible than some shady conspiracy to unethically harvest the contacts of a small percentage of users for a slight improvement in ranking or targeting.
Facebook is not some well-oiled machine, it is a jumbled mess of thousands of junior engineers, perpetually barely avoiding collapsing under its own weight.
* People inside FB generally believe, whatever they think of Zuck, that he doesn’t just outright lie about verifiable facts. The entire code repository is completely open to all employees. If adding this feature really was malicious and FB’s response is an outright lie, somebody WILL find the commit and leak it.
* Even if FB is doing harm, on balance the good it’s doing is greater. It has made communication between humans easier and lower-friction which has many upsides.
Part of this is that all the upsides are concrete and obvious (people fall in love on Facebook/IG/MN/WA, they stay in touch with friends and family, they run a business, etc). Whereas the downsides are abstract and hypothetical (maybe someday someone will use Facebook’s collected data for some nefarious purpose).
* Even if all of the above is false and FB really is harmful to the world, the situation certainly won’t be improved by thinking people quitting, and leaving the company totally in the hands of yes-men who drink all the kool-aid.
* Criticisms of FB are not exaggerated. In this case, FB stole 1.5 million creds, then used these creds to harvest user data (nobody actually wants to give this data away, it was taken by force). If an individual did this, they would be in prison. FB gets away with it... again..
* People inside FB are a cult. It has been shown that MZ will lie about verifiable facts, even to congress! Its wilful suspension of reality for the sake of a huge paycheck. ... "when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
* FB is doing harm, and Its not on balance greater. Its divisive, promotes untruth, gives a voice to those that really shouldn't have a voice, spreads misinformation, promotes hate and dismantles democracy. Not to mention... Ostracization? Murder? Genocide? Exactly how many FB whistleblowers have existed in history? Is this worth it so people can share cat and dog pictures, and stolen memes from other media? I'd say, no.
* One of the most troubling moments in my recent history was visiting India, and seeing how FB is so influential in general discourse. I had people tell me great, unjust untruths like they were facts -- "I read it on facebook".
* If FB has no users anymore, it has no advertisers, it goes away. Better for the world!
FB is arguably the most destructive force of the 21st century. We will never be free until we shake its iron grip on humanity.
I am quite capable of making similar sums outside of Facebook. In fact I plan to leave soon for reasons that have nothing to do with ethics, and I don’t foresee myself changing my opinion once I’m no longer an employee.
Now to answer your specific points:
* Facebook did not steal credentials. They were willingly given.
* “Nobody actually wants to give this data away” how do you know? Do you have polling data on this? My personal belief is that most people don’t care at all.
Also you’re completely ignoring my assertion that it probably was just an accident. Hard to argue that something was “taken by force” by accident.
* Can you give me some examples of Zuckerberg knowingly lying about objective, verifiable facts to Congress?
* Well, your guess is as good as mine whether it’s better or worse on balance. My intuition is that it’s better. You haven’t really argued against this, just given some examples of the worst possible downsides and asking if they’re worth the most trivial upsides (conveniently ignoring the real value of communication tools in people’s lives, which has nothing to do with dog pictures and memes).
In my experience, FB isn’t divisive at all. I use it to talk daily to people who have become very close friends and who live in a different city (my home town). Without that connection, I would be extremely lonely.
* I’ve heard plenty of people in the US tell me great, unjust untruths like they were facts. They saw them on TV or heard them on the radio.
* As for FB being the most destructive force, I think you’d have to give that title to climate change, resource depletion, terrorism, and war.
* "Wallet inspector". I don't think the authorities would let you off if you claimed to socially engineer (steal) someones wallet. People wanted their FB supplied dopamine hit, and handing over email creds was the only thing in their way. It is coercion.
* Another FB meme -- 'people dont care so we can do what we like'. People lack the specific understanding of what they give up. It is coersive to take advantage of people like this. We talk of informed consent. FB existence is reliant on action without informed consent. https://news.gallup.com/poll/232343/worries-personal-data-to... recent poll showed 55% of users are concerned about FB selling there data. That's a majority. I think society is growing wiser in time. My hope is the social climate matures to understand what the individual gives up by using these services.
* MZ lies to congress: "we don't sell data to anyone." Mental gymnastics to make this true. Its the entire business model of FB, selling user data to advertisers -- sure, its not the raw bytes the user uploaded (however, they provided lots of record data to 3rd parties). The social graph is data, user data, and it is sold to advertisers, integration providers, hardware vendors, etc etc. How is MZ not a liar about privacy, again and again?
* I am ignoring your assertion it was an accident. Stealing credentials isnt an accident. Full take logging (capturing creds) on your HTTP gateways is an accident (kinda). Deploying credential stealing walls is no accident. Deploying code that uses these credentials to harvest address books is no accident. Its a chain of malicious actions. Cannot be an accident.
* We have legislative and industry standards for Radio and TV (aka legacy media) to ensure that untruths don't get very far. FB, not so much. Yes, all media can be a source for misinformation, but FB really is king here.
* I dont use facebook and am extremely lonely.
* Point taken, there are worse things in this world. But to me, this is the most visible, and most actionable, today.
Thanks for engaging. I don't really know why I decided to write all of this, but Im feeling mad over this credential harvesting. Its yet another strike.
Best of luck with your career outside FB!