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Comment by vetinari | Hacker News Reader

You have it backwards.

We are not trying to have cheap labor. We are trying to have more labor. However, the experienced people are limited resource, so the next step is to find inexperienced ones and train them.

However, that doesn't work that way so easily. If you train someone for 6-12 months (during that time the trainee not only isn't making you any money, but other people, who otherwise would, are not either), you are investing into these people. If they leave before you break even, you are at loss. If you would pay them market rate as soon as they finish training, you would never break even.

That's why some companies insist on contract, that the trainee will stay with the company for specified time, if they take the training.

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Ok. Keep blaming the employees for your retention problems. It's definitely not your fault. I'm sure it will work out.

I don't blame anyone, just filter out the too selfish ones early. If they can't go for win-win of both sides, they can try their moves elsewhere.

So how do you do that?

Very carefully, during interviewing. Until now, it worked, even though mistakes happen. It is not scalable long-term, so we will have to find something else.

Do you think someone is going to actually tell you that they are going to leave for greener pastures as soon as possible?

Of course not. But a good communicator can learn more from the communication than just what was said explicitly.

The truth: I’ll leave for a large enough increase in salary all other things being equal.

What I say at interview: “I love building things. I’ve been interested in computers since the mid 80s when I was writing 65C02 assembly language on an Apple //e. I guess you could say that I have always been a computer geek. I’m still amazed after all of this time that I get paid for doing something that I enjoy this much. On my way to work everyday and while I am working out I’m listening to $list_of_tech_podcasts. I try to spend at least 1 hour a day outside of work just keeping up with technology.”

Any developer with a modicum of emotional intelligence can get pass behavioral interview questions because really, the interviewerer doesn’t expect much from computer geeks and most developers.

How would you know that I am really just in it for the money? I’ve been on the interviewer and interviewee side of the table just as long or longer than most people who interview me. I’ve been through $big_company “how to interview candidates” training. Of course I know the answers you’re looking for.

Oh and the old geek who likes to continuously learn helps to answer the question am I keeping up with technology and why I am not in management.

> during that time the trainee not only isn't making you any money

They're training full-time? They're not even doing junior-level work? Why are you paying them a salary then?

> other people, who otherwise would, are not either

Senior folks are getting valuable experience of mentoring and growing people too.

Yes, they train full time. That's what a proprietary platform (not ours, third party, but hey, at least it has its own wikipage) will get you. Not even the build system is standard. Yes, they are paid salary. Very few people can afford to go several months without salary, that would filter out some candidates that proved to be right match in the end.

And that's the reason why the wage ramp up is slower, even after finishing the training.

That's a different situation then. A lot of companies make trainee employees sign a bond. To my knowledge all the Indian software consulting giants have one. If an employee leaves before the term is fulfilled (typically 2 years) they have to pay the company. It's usually on the order of 20-40% of an entry-level employee's annual salary. Otherwise the company can withhold references and experience letters, which are usually needed in future.

If you already have a bond/contract system in place and employees are still leaving, then IMO you're still paying them too little. If they are happy to pay 20-40% of their annual pay just to leave the company, it means they can make 50-100% more elsewhere. Loyalty is worth something but it's not worth passing up a pay raise that high.

What type of training program would be worth signing a contract for? Alternatively do like Amazon and offer deferred compensation that takes four years to fully vest.

Yes, deferred compensation is also a good idea.

Right now, we directly outline the plan: for now, you will be getting less, once you start working on the client work, your pay will ramp up, depending how much weight you can pull.

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