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Comment by adreamingsoul | Hacker News Reader

Yes, you are popular now but in 10-20 years after you’ve been through the wringer a couple times the concept of a tech union might make more sense.

EDIT: changed "ringer" to "wringer".

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I agree, and that's one of the reasons I posted how long I've been in the industry. On the one hand, right now everything is flowers and daisies but who knows what it will look like for me in 10-20-30 years, it might be a completely different landscape and unions might be required.

Unrelated, but it's "through the wringer" not "ringer". A "wringer" being something that wrings your clothes out i.e. puts a great amount of stress and force on them.

Sorry for being annoying and pedantic :-(

AH, my mistake and thank you. I was wondering about that spelling but obviously I didn't take the time to double check.

Ringer[1] 1. a person or thing that encircles, rings, etc. 2. a quoit or horseshoe so thrown as to encircle the peg. 3. the throw itself. 4. Also ring·ers. Also called ring taw. Marbles . a game in which players place marbles in a cross marked in the center of a circle, the object being to knock as many marbles as possible outside the circle by using another marble shooter. 5. Australian . a highly skilled sheep shearer.

[1] https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ringer

I've been through the ringer... I'm in my 40s and at the point in my life where if you'd pay me good money to dig holes, then I'd dig holes. I go to where ever pays me the most to dig. I don't identify myself by where I work at. I don't expect other people to have my values, and definitely don't have those expectations on a corporation. I have this mercenary attitude because I know that I'm solely responsible for myself and my family. If you are going to expect that a union, corporation or a government take care of you, then you are going to be very disappointed - that is my problem with socialism.

It sounds like you are mixing the positive and normative. Yes, corporations now don't represent the values of their workers and lobby for all kinds of awful things. Yes, there is no social net now provided by unions or the government in the United States.

But wouldn't it be excellent if these things were true?

In theory, if it all magically worked, then sure. In reality, no. Because no matter the good intentions, I can not trust the government to not screw it up.

If a company screws something up, I can just switch jobs and move to another company. If the government screws up, there is little I can do.

Move to another country?

While theoretically possible, I do not see this solution scaling well for the majority of a population.

The Nordic model shows that it is possible to have a highly unionized workforce with free higher education, free healthcare, and social welfare. They have been very effective in fighting poverty this way.

Yeah, everything "works" until it doesn't.

See: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/08/finlands-government-resigns-...

"Financial constraints are colliding with the healthcare costs imposed by Finland’s fast-aging population. But cutting those costs is a major political obstacle in a Nordic country that historically has provided an extensive -- and expensive -- healthcare system."

On one hand, I think it's unfortunate that a society has to have a mindset of self preservation. On the other, I think individuals should be self-sufficient and responsible for themselves.

What happens when you can't take care of yourself? What happens when a series of unfortunate events interfere with your ability to dig those holes? Who then will be responsible for you?

You mentioned you have a problem with socialism, have you experienced and lived in socialism? I haven't and have no actual experience of what is good or bad about it. Do you have any concrete examples of why socialism is bad?

You don't need to take my word for it... study history and economics.

> If you are going to expect that a union, corporation or a government take care of you, then you are going to be very disappointed.

As a fellow tech worker who have been through the wringer many times, I can confirm this is absolutely true.

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