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Comment by ilaksh | Hacker News Reader

In a way this is great but in another way it's the worst. It's nice to have a practical way to use Bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) to buy things in the vast majority of places that don't take Bitcoin.

On the other hand, I have always considered one of the main concepts with cryptocurrency to be the potential ability to avoid third parties taking a cut of all of your digital transactions. This turns it into just another way for big companies like Visa or Coinbase to get rich just on the basis that people need to exchange money.

The basic idea for me with cryptocurrency is that since it's our money we shouldn't have to give control of it to third parties just for basic usage. We have math, the internet, and plenty of computers. We should not need Visa or Coinbase.

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I don't see what is in this for the consumer either. If you are not already a holder, why would anyone want the hassle of becoming one, just to pay high fees for each and every transaction (e.g. the 2.49% "crypto liquidation fee" for this card) when you can get a cashback card (e.g. mine gives me up to 10% cashback on some purchases), and why would you not want your assets working for you until as late as possible (not until point of purchase as in this case but up to 5-6 weeks later when a conventional monthly credit card bill become due)? And if you are a crypto holder, why would you want to transfer custody of your crypto to Coinbase and make your tax return a nightmare (i.e. with a potentially large number of small disposals)?

what card do you have and what do you get 10% back on?

Not him but the Discover It card gives rotating 5% cash back and a cashback match for the first year, making it 10%.

Wow, that's a pretty good deal. How widely accepted is Discover these days? I'm curious what has your experience been? Cheers.

I’ve had this card for a few years, I rarely encounter someone who doesn’t accept it. (United States) I carry this card, the citi cash back master card and the amazon prime visa. Figure at least one works and I prioritize best reward.

Also the categories they offer 5% on (amazon, gas, restaurants, grocery) are likely to take discover.

Thanks for the feedback, good to know. Interesting you mentioned the Amazon card. I would actually be curious to hear your experience with that Amazon card. In looking at the reviews on their site, nearly the entire last two years reviews are pretty abysmal review(one star.) Cheers.

I have had an amazon card for a few years now.

I can't say anything bad or good about it. I get 1% back (or points to spend at amazon) for any purchases, 2% points back for gas, and 3% points when I use it at amazon.

There's been more than several times where it looked like it never applied the points to my account though. I always paid it off in full every month, and sometimes it works sometimes not. When I lived on the road and used it for hotels, while getting reimbursed from them, I was able to rack up $1500 worth of points.

Other than that, it's been fine. Looking around for something a bit better though.

Costco card is better for gas, restaurants, and travel. Double cash card is 2% on everything. Both are Citi, so its one app and account, just have to remember if youre buying gas, restaurant, travel or costco.

Not OP either, but Square cash debit card lets you get a “boost” (aka discount) at some stores. Some of them are 10% off.

Its a NatWest Reward card. Cashback is normally 0.5-1%, but they have additional cashback from selected vendors at different times, e.g. they had 10% on amazon.co.uk purchases and 3% for household bills at one point, and current offers include 10% off at a restaurant I'm already scheduled to visit. Monthly fee is £2 so you need to work out if the additional cashback is likely to net you more than £24pa. Disclaimer: not affiliated with the company, and not saying its the only option or necessarily even the best option - just answering a question.

why would you not want your assets working for you until as late as possible (not until point of purchase as in this case but up to 5-6 weeks later when a conventional monthly credit card bill become due)?

So paint a picture for me. How do I otherwise conveniently pay off my credit card bill with crypto? (Honestly, I would like to know, and such information would be a benefit to the general public.)

> The basic idea for me with cryptocurrency is that since it's our money we shouldn't have to give control of it to third parties just for basic usage. We have math, the internet, and plenty of computers. We should not need Visa or Coinbase.

How does this give them control? As long as it still use/depends on the Bitcoin network, you still have control.

If anything, this show how cryptocurrency are amazing. Both the little guys and the big guys can use it, even you.

Cryptocurrencies has the potential to solve 2 things I believe is extremely essential this day in age. - Everyone can use them - Every amount can be used

I simply can't do a Visa transaction of 1 cent... simply can't... A child can't use Visa either. Both situations will happens more and more with the internet.

You can't do a 1 cent transaction with Bitcoin either. The future is fee less cryptocurrencies.

Of course you can- Lightning works today.

If you don't believe me, our team hacked together https://ln.pizza as a demo of the tech.

Isn't there a Bitcoin fee to open/close a channel and then the fees involved sending via lightning nodes?

Also the routing problem is starting to become an issue with the network at just ~5000 nodes - How will it scale to millions?

Of course these are just the technical issues, there are others concerning centralization which always seems to end up in a monopolistic end game that end up with consumers having no choice but to pay.

This is exactly why I used "cryptocurrencies" instead of Bitcoin. Cryptocurrencies has the potential to solve it, it doesn't means that they all do.

Thanks for clarifying, we're in agreement there.

> How does this give them control? As long as it still use/depends on the Bitcoin network, you still have control.

I don't see how I have more control if coinbase hold my crypto and sell it for me when I buy something compared to just having money at a bank.

> I don't see how I have more control if coinbase hold my crypto and sell it for me when I buy something compared to just having money at a bank.

Can you transfer it using the Bitcoin network? That's when you get your control back. Personally I consider that you should also always try to keep the least amount of Bitcoin possible, and to always keep it to yourself, not on an exchange.

To me also cryptocurrencies aren't a way to keep something either, it's a way to transfer value.

Why not just having money at the bank? Funnily enough I would say that you should actually keep it there and if you actually need to make a payment using Bitcoin, simply find a quick way to transfer that money to Bitcoin.

Cryptocurrencies are amazing to transfer value virtually. They aren't there to replace cash, they are there to allow you to transfer value outside of real life. It's there to allow you to do what you do in real life with cash, but on the internet. Sure Venmo allow you to do it, but I can't have a Venmo account, but everyone can have a Bitcoin wallet and exchange from it.

The released product here seems to be the exact opposite of what you are suggesting.

1. Storing value as Bitcoin

2. Storing it on an exchange

3. Doing the actual transaction using traditional methods

They allow it.. for sure. The same way that I wouldn't suggest you to hold all your cash over an investment account. They need to allow some holding, or else what else would you transfer?

Nothing can be ideal either, but the closer you get, the better it is.

> the potential ability to avoid third parties taking a cut of all of your digital transactions

Other than mining fees?

Mining fees are needed for securing the network, pretty reasonable.

By providing KYC and regulation, Visa/Coinbase also secure the network.

You know better than that. He was referring to information security, not legislative compliance.

They're one and the same thing. Compliance is a way of demonstrating that you have met certain data and information security standards.

KYC has zero to do with information security, and there's a legitimate argument that much of the regulation is anti-competitive regulatory capture with the primary goal of preventing new entrants in the market, with "security" being a secondary concern.

KYC isn't some conspiracy to keep Bitcoin firms out - it's a vital protection against money laundering, terrorist financing and checking for identity theft.

There are very real consequences in the real world when these checks get skipped or overlooked.

Nobody said anything about it being a conspiracy. It's not a conspiracy that entrenched actors advocate for rules they can trivially follow that just happen to kneecap upstarts. It's an expected and recognized behavior of large entities.

That goes double when "terrorism" is brought up, which is a metasituational justification for nearly any conceivable rule.

They aren’t trivial to follow - Standard Chartered were fined $1.1bn for AML non compliance, Swedbank and Danske have lost their CEOs. KYC is vital for the integrity of the economic system precisely because ML is as prevalent as it is.

That's not true. KYC is for preventing money laundering and terrorist financing. You do NOT want the RCMP/FBI asking why you permitted terrorists to use your platform.

It's as much fraud control as legislative compliance. From the perspective of consumers, considering a payment network as 'secure' requires fraud control - by ability to reverse fraudulent transactions and/or making it hard or expensive for fraudulent recipients to sustain operations.

In terms of fraud protection, the bitcoin network is only responsible for ensuring a double spend will not happen. I don't think it should be the 1st layer protocol's responsibility to also handle chargebacks and fraud claims... these issues need to be settled by intermediaries who are willing and able to deal with these customer issues.

My two major gripes are that it's first hitting the UK market and it has liquidation fees associated.

I agree with the premise that we shouldn't need to convert to fiat but unfortunately we have to follow the pace of adoption. You could create a POS device tied to a service that accepts crypto-only via chip and pin or magnetic for the business. I'm doubtful many businesses are hearing from their customers that they want crypto only payments, however.

I lead the development of a crypto debit card in the US. If anyone has questions, shoot me a message.

Sure, but a good strategy to mass adoption is bitcoin being compatible with global payment systems.

debit card, no protections against fraud by 3rd parties against your account.

run away, run away.

Yes... just put the money that you can lose without losing your sleep. People must be aware of the risks.

Can you use the coinbase debit account to pay off a credit card?

Well, you can transfer cryptocurrency direct from buyer to seller with no middlemen but it's kind of clunky and requires both buyer and seller to be familiar with the same cryptocurrency.

And then I was thinking of making a simple transfer app for direct crypto but then you think people are going to use it for illegal stuff and you'll get in trouble for facilitating drug dealing etc.

Or you have the Coinbase/Visa route where it's all KYCed and regulated but not much advantage over regular Visa. Dunno.

> We should not need Visa or Coinbase.

We need them because of legal limitations, not technical ones

IMHO, at the end of the day the biggest challenge is not technical, but rather it's to change the laws which were made to support the current system, to protect established actors, and to protect their interests

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