Hacker News Reader

Comment by gpjanik | Hacker News Reader

I hate how Tesla advertises Model 3 as a 35k$ car. In Germany, the cheapest, bare bone version of it is around 60 000 (53k euro). At this price point, it doesn't make much sense, it's just better to get a car like Merc E Class.

View on HN

Tesla’s price is $35k but your country adds hefty taxes. I was in Germany last year talking about a 5 series rental my coworker upgraded to. I was pretty shocked when they said it was over €100k. I pulled up the same car for about $60k at my local dealer in the states and that price is before bargaining. Pick it up in Munich and you can save 5%.

Companies in the US don’t post prices including taxes in almost all cases.

> Tesla’s price is $35k but your country adds hefty taxes.

No, they sell different models in Germany. The cheapest model available in Germany currently is the LR AWD, which costs $48K in the US.

I was only going by what price the OP commented. They announced the 35k price in the US but only recently started production I believe the base model is 6 months away for Europe.

That's true, but the numbers still don't add up without VAT and other taxes. Without VAT and including the incentive (2k euro) it's around 43k euro which is 48k USD.

Yes, so it's virtually the same price as the equivalent model in the US. As others mentioned, the other problem is that the base model now available in the US is still months away for European markets.

That being said, it doesn't seem very appropriate to complain that a car advertised as $35k USD in the US isn't available for the same price in Germany.

Goods are never advertised without taxes in Germany, so if it's 53k after taxes, that makes it a 53k car.

> I was pretty shocked when they said it was over €100k. I pulled up the same car for about $60k at my local dealer in the states and that price is before bargaining.

I don’t believe you. The only stock 5 series over €100k is the M5 Limousine (€119k). All other models are well below €100k, unless they come with options / BMW Individual. 550d Touring xDrive is €82k base price (with taxes).

I’m looking at a 2019 530d M package with full option and that thing would cost me €82k, after discounts comes as low as €60k (trade in).

What you say with $60k is probably something like 520i base option before taxes (knowing US).

So, I don’t believe that story.

No idea how much cars cost in Germany let alone Europe only what the Germans told me.

I don’t think they sell the 520i in the US, at least I can’t find them. Here’s a 540i for $62k and I guarantee I could negotiate it to less than $60 with a 6.5% tax.[1] M5s here are over 100k. 550i are about 90k.

No chance of a 550d touring coming stateside, I can’t compare prices. Diesel wagon with 4 turbos wow!!

[1]https://www.bmwofgwinnettplace.com/detail-2019-bmw-5_series-...

Just for your reference, it appears the 520i is not offered in the US. The base model would be the 530i. It doesn't seem like a 530d or a 550d are offered in the US...but for some kind of comparison:

with little effort I was able to find a 2019 540i xDrive with the M sport package for $53k on cargurus. Factor in taxes and its $57k. Factor in that I haven't even bothered to check autotrader or shop around emailing/calling dealers as I would do if I was interested in purchasing one.

Yes you can't get that deal everywhere and it might not be typical. But it's there

For $60k you can certainly get a lot more BMW than a 520i in the US

Thank you for these numbers. I just went to the German configurator to have a look at the exact prices. This is what I get: 540i base model with M package is €66250 base price after taxes, straight from the BMW dealer.

But in Europe, we have VAT, depending on the country, 19 to 21%.

Before the taxes, the price is: €55672. Considering the exchange rate of 1.12 USD to EUR, still significantly more expensive than in the US but far, far off of the €100k.

Diesel is by default more expensive because of better economy.

Ah, I see, you are talking about a second hand car. All the numbers I included in my replies refer to a brand new car delivered to order. For a reference, I just visited a US configurator. A brand new 540i M package is exactly $62550 and the configurator says: "MSRP excludes destination & handling fee of $995, tax, title, license, and registration."

Sorry, but a brand new car will be much more expensive then in the US than in Germany.

I think you are again confused. It’s a brand new car. The MSRP is over 60k, but MSRP != selling price.

Perhaps it’s common to pay MSRP in Germany, but if you’re paying MSRP in the US for a non special vehicle you’re doing it wrong.

> Sorry, but a brand new car will be much more expensive then in the US than in Germany.

You’ve provided no evidence to suggest this is the case.

German cars are _significantly_ more expensive in Germany than the exact same model in the US. I was astonished at the price difference (factoring in currency conversion, VAT, etc). The same applies for electronics. I sold a used iPad to a German colleague for substantially _more_ than what I had paid for it, and it was still a bargain for him.

German cars in Germany are also more likely to be made in Germany, whereas a lot of the US models are made in Tennessee or South Carolina.

Wikipedia claims that Spartanburg hosts the only US factory and only the X models (SUVs) are manufactured there.

Even in the US, the $35k Model 3 is still somewhat of a mystical creature. I don't believe anyone who has "bought" the car actually received it yet.

Maybe in the next few weeks, the $35k will actually exist and we'll start seeing youtube reviews of the cloth interior (and other cutbacks they've done to get the price lower). But as far as I know, no such review exists yet. It was... what? 4 weeks ago when Tesla started selling the $35k on their website?

And its still not actually around...

Not having a model in stock one month after announcing it is not a huge deal though. Time to delivery of a Chevrolet Bolt in Canada was over 6 months after launch :/

The $35k Model 3 was "announced" in 2016, over two years ago, with $1000 pre-order deposits taken at that time. https://www.engadget.com/2016/03/31/tesla-unveils-its-35-000... There were promises about how this car would arrive in 2017 back then.

> The $35,000 (before federal tax credits) Model 3 sedan made its world debut at an event in Los Angeles. On stage, Elon Musk announced that the car will have at least 215 miles of range, 0-60 in under six seconds, and every single one will have Supercharging as a standard feature.

The $35k Model 3 hit Tesla's webpage with "2-to-4-weeks of delivery" in late Febuary. Its April, and no one has this car yet.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/28/tesla-model-3-standard-batter...

> Tesla says that deliveries are starting within the next 2 to 4 weeks depending on the configuration in the US.

---------

If you trick a bunch of people to come and try to buy a product that DOES NOT EXIST YET, and then convince them to buy something else when they enter the store... that's called a "Bait and Switch". Its literally an illegal sales tactic. Tesla isn't doing it to the point where it is illegal, but it is still clearly scummy behavior and toes the line.

People are coming to the Tesla stores looking for the $35k model, and are immediately being upsold to buy $40k or $45k vehicles instead. The 35k model is the bait, the $40k to $45k models are the switch.

Upselling is standard practice for car sales. I don't think barely anybody ever buys the base model of a car.

The difference is that the base model EXISTS in the other stores.

The $35k model 3 doesn't exist yet. But Mr. Musk has been touting that number for the past 3 years anyway. Its not common practice to tout a number for a mythical, non-existent car.

Having higher shipping times (or other inconveniences) on cheaper/base models is also pretty common in car sales tactics to help with the upsell.

the point is that a $35k model 3 has never been built. It is literal vaporware. They have to design and build a new line of cheapo cloth seats for it, which they haven't. 0 have been sold.

There's a difference between upselling and bait and switch, though. Upselling, imo, is trying to convince you to get a higher priced model, or falling back to the base while it's in stock. Here Tesla is advertising a vehicle they do not have in stock. It's like getting you in and then saying they misquoted the price and it's actually $10k more (to me).

Funnily enough, you could argue the same about the Mercedes E class. For the price of a Mercedes, you could get a Tesla. :-)

But Merc E is multiple classes above the Tesla in terms of space, interior quality and luxury/comfort.

Not performance. And your Merc E won't get better with time.

Why would a Tesla?

Regular software updates that add significant new features. Dashcam, dog mode, sentry mode, summon, etc.

Better range, doubled charging speeds, improved braking distance...

It is a real case of downloading more RAM.

I was on vacation and got a notification that there was a firmware update for my Model 3 which was parked in my garage a thousand miles away. I remotely installed it and my car literally got 5% quicker.

Pretty crazy!

No, it’s like buying an 1 GHz oscilloscope and buying the license to enable the 2 GHz version. The hardware has always been there.

The test equipment industry is notorious for this. I can buy a $15k Keysight Fieldfox spectrum analyzer and turn it into a $50k instrument with license that enable hardware that is already there.

Cool, so it gets better the same way your 15 year old laptop gets better?

Yes... great isn't it! Not sure why cars haven't done this before.

How long does the battery in a Tesla last? What’s the cost to replace it?

Battery degredation seems to bottom out between 85-90% capacity on most cars after a lot of miles. Likely will never need a replacement.

If I recall correctly, most of the lowest performers are older S and X. The 3 is expected to degrade even slower with their improved battery cells and thermal management.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat...

So far all we have is anecdotal evidence

https://www.teslarati.com/tesloop-tesla-model-s-400k-miles-b...

Is it better or worse as far as total costs compared to a Mercedes-Benz with 645,000 km on it?

A Mercedes E class won't get totaled if you get into a fender bender.

But how much will be broken or worn out after three years of service? Germans don't engineer for reliability.

I mean, if we're going to debase the level of argument down to national origin, since when does American manufacturing have a reputation for quality and reliability?

Choosing Tesla is easy if all you care about is 0-100 km/h performance. However, not everyone do that.

Better to get in with the youth market, then go upmarket with them as they age.

It’s not just 0-100. Driving an EV is just more fun. (IMO of course).

Agreed. Model 3 is the only car that ever gave me a feeling similar to riding a supersport motorcycle in terms of acceleration.

P.S. Model 3 happens to be the only EV I tried, but as much as I know about EVs, most of them share a similar kind of "fun" acceleration.

More fun compared to what? A 911 GT3? Challenger Hellcat? Toyota Corolla?

accelerating really fast in a straight line is probably the most pointless aspect of "performance" for a car that gets driven on public roads. modern hot hatches that cost $25k are already too powerful to fully appreciate without getting your license taken away. a 230i or m240i is going to be much more fun to drive 10-15 mph over the speed limit than any Tesla. get one with a manual transmission while you still can.

You accelerate really fast in a straight line every time you pull out from a stop sign or red light. In fact if you are adhering to speed limits, accelerating really fast is the only way to save travel time.

Or arrive faster at the next red light.

I used to think this until I got an EV. The ability to a) accelerate quickly and b) stop more quickly makes them almost like motorcycles.

You catch lights easier, merge effortlessly and slowdowns are zen.

I gain about a couple of min trip time to drop off my kids which is about 10m and 6-7 signal lights away.

Also on highways I utilize the HOV lane which for me trims about 5m off my longish commute.

And it’s all comfortable and silent.

I mean technically you are correct, but usually when people talk about performance, they are considering the recreational qualities of the car. most people don't buy fast cars to shave fractions of a second off accelerating to 35mph.

Ignoring the existence of traffic, sure.

Save travel time by accelerating fast? So you get to 40mph a half a second faster? Are you being sarcastic?

I drive a sports car on public roads. Straight, level, boring public roads with low speed limits. Straight line is basically the only thing that matters 90% of the time. For the other 10% of the time, the difference between a Tesla and the ICE equivalent still doesn't matter or possibly even favors the instant response of the electric drivetrain.

It sounds like you're just not driving on the right public roads.

In the US, to name just a couple, there are:

    - Hells Canyon, Idaho
    - Saddle Road, Hawaii
    - Mulholland Highway, California
    - Route 9W to Storm King Highway, New York
    - Route 348, Helen, Georgia 
    - M119, Harbor Springs, Michigan
    - Highway 1, Big Sur, California

In the UK:

    - Horncastle to Louth
    - Cat and Fiddle
    - Evo Triangle
    - Forres to Alford
    - Black Mountain Pass
    - St Ives To St Just

Those probably are not the 90% case

Of course, but an enthusiast doesn't purchase a sports car for the 90% case, it's purchased for the 10% case - road trips to some of the best driving roads in the world.

If you just want a flash car to get to work and back well that's different. And if you just want to go fast between the lights then a Tesla is genuinely the best car for you.

I mean, its not that I disagree with you, but the closest one is almost 300 miles from here. I used to drive some pretty good ones in western NC as well, tbh. There's a reason there are so many Miatas up there. :)

But here it is all straight and flat.

oh man, 9w is beautiful. used to go to school up there.

> And your Merc E won't get better with time.

Have you priced a classic Mercedes E-class lately? Allow me to help. https://www.classicdriver.com/en/cars/mercedes-benz/ponton-1...

What exactly is your point here? The E-class didn't get better. Its worth increased, and there is no guarantee that would continue for today's new models seeing as their depreciation (as with most luxury brand models) is pathetic.

> The E-class didn't get better. Its worth increased [...]

This statement doesn't compute for me.

The actual car is the same. Tesla cars get upgrades and new features after purchase.

Ok, but if the E Class worth went up, you can't really say that's a bad deal...

They're classic cars from the 1950s kept shining and running. Not only did keeping them that way probably cost quite a bit, as I'd bet an E Class sold today won't have the same appeal sixty years from now as these do today.

They could also brick it remotely, or introduce a bug in the autopilot and plow you into a barrier: You might not want the upgrades

I'm not a car person, however, the interior of a Tesla feels horribly cheap in comparison to a quality made german car.

Totally get where he's coming from. My Audi, which costs about a third of a Tesla model S, has a nicer interior than a Model S. That makes no sense to me.

The base model 3 is only 0.5s faster to 60 than the base E class, and that gap doesn't widen by all that much as you go up both product lines.

If you want performance, buy a sports car not a Tesla. Straight line acceleration has almost nothing to do with lap time compared to the suspension and brakes. You can buy a formula car with downforce for about £15k, admittedly more if you want to take it to tracks and run it healthily.

Also, if you look for "performance" in your road car it just sounds like a recipe for wrapping it around a tree (Or ruining your back: I'm a huge motorsports fanatic, and I'd still probably take a comfortable car with reasonable performance over a "fast" one without fancy suspension to make it comfortable)

Do you mean particularly model 3?

It still stinks like any other petroleum car. Once you go EV it’s hard to go back.

It's $35k USD without tax in the United States.

Apple also advertises iPhone as a $1000 phone, but the cheapest is like $2500 in Brazil. Not Apple's fault.

European prices are VAT and other taxes included. US reports prices without tax.

Tesla doesn’t advertise. What are you referring to?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com